just trying to keep the price down until they do get some activity and then they can show their customers huge gains and gain their trust more......i have no idea lolOriginally Posted by jelax
SIRIUS XM SATELLITE RADIO FORUM
just trying to keep the price down until they do get some activity and then they can show their customers huge gains and gain their trust more......i have no idea lol
I was a real customer today! I bought 13k of it. But I didn't buy all at once. It bought them in chunks really weird. Before it bought a whole bunch at a time.
Now that we understand the basics, here's the scam. I'm an MM and i know the real bid and ask are .35/.36.
I can now buy shares at .3501 and turn around and sell them for .3599. All day. Over and over. do that X 27 million plus your agency fees and you have a pretty good day.
Last edited by Brandon Matthews; 04-01-2009 at 05:07 PM.
I would think the chunks are because they have to find someone selling that quantity at that price. So, if you place order for 13k shares, and there's only two sellers at your bid price with a total of 1000 shares, then you have remaining order of 12,000 shares.I was a real customer today! I bought 13k of it. But I didn't buy all at once. It bought them in chunks really weird. Before it bought a whole bunch at a time.
This happened to me a few weeks back when I placed an order for 100,000 shares on a 'all or none' basis. The order sat, unfilled. I called my broker and said what's the deal, and he explained that I needed to revise the order to drop the 'all or none', and then it traded quickly in chunks, just as yours did.
but who they buyin' from at .3501? The Ask is .36.
And who they sellin' to at .3599, the bid is only .35?
still confused....oh well...no problem. Thanks for the info...still helpful...I'm gettin' there!
The Manipulative MM's make money on spreads. By using a combination of the three methods below, the price could be stagnant for a while.
From the SEC website:
- Trading Ahead. In certain instances, specialists filled one agency order through a proprietary trade for their firm's account while a matchable agency order was present on the opposite side of the market, thereby improperly "trading ahead" of such opposite-side executable agency order. The customer order that was traded ahead of was then disadvantaged when it was subsequently executed at a price that was inferior to the price received by the firm's proprietary account. For example, if a specialist has present on his book, at the same time, a marketable customer order to buy 1,000 shares of a security and a marketable customer order to sell 1,000 shares of the same security, the specialist would be obligated to pair off those matchable orders. Trading ahead would occur if the specialist filled the sell order from the firm's proprietary account at $25.00 per share, and then subsequently executed the buy order at the inferior price of $25.05 per share. In this example, the buy order received a price inferior to that which it was entitled ($25.00) and the customer was disadvantaged by $50.00 (1,000 shares x $0.05 per share).
- Interpositioning. In certain instances, after trading ahead, specialists also traded proprietarily with the matchable opposite-side agency order that had been traded ahead of, thereby "interpositioning" themselves between the two agency orders that should have been paired off in the first instance. By participating on both sides of trades, the specialist captured the spread between the purchase and sale prices, thereby disadvantaging the other parties to the transactions. Alternatively, specialists sometimes sold shares of a security into a customer buy order, and then filled the customer sell order by buying for the firm's proprietary account at a lower price. In either case, the specialists participated on both sides of trades, capturing the spread between the purchase and sale prices, and disadvantaging the other parties to the transaction.
- Trading Ahead of Unexecuted Open or Cancelled Orders. In certain instances, specialists traded ahead of opposite-side executable agency orders, as described above, but in these instances, the unexecuted orders were left open until the end of the trading day, or were cancelled by the customer prior to the close of the trading day before receiving an execution.
they aren't doing it all at once. They flip pennies all day. You see ISEG bidding at .3520 . They are buying for their own account. Then you see ISEG selling at .3580. They are selling the shares that they bought at .3520
The MM's have their own accounts. Customer orders are supposed to be filled before their own accounts, but that is not happening with SIRI.
MM=MarketMakers
Think of the transaction events in four separate sales
A customer wants to Sell at .35
A customer wants to Buy at .36
Ordinarily the Transaction would be completed with a .35 price.
But...
A customer wants to Sell at .35
intervention occurs!!!
THE MM BUYER STEPS IN AT .3501 BUY PRICE for their account
THE MM SELLER SETS UP A .3550 SELL PRICE from their account
A customer wanting to Buy at .36 must wait
Meanwhile, other sellers are lowering their asks (and are being interviened) and a price channel is frozen. The customer may not drop their bid as low as the MM ask and allows the MM to intervene with multiple purchase/sales points. This activity stifles the rise of the stock due to the inability of the customer to realise any gain in purchase price.
Brandon................. what happens if you jump in ahead of their blocking trades with a trade of your own to four decimal places? Do they have all the time in the world to continously throw up roadblocks? Therefore, many speedy inserts of new buys or sells are inneffectual? Thanks I appreciate your time. I realize this is grammar school to you. P.S. Where's sl62 been? .. killer.
No that tends to work. We talk about it all the time. If we determine the spread that day we can get a pretty good idea on entry and exit points.
For those of us that have made certain calls, this is the basis of most mornings determinations. We will see the bids and asks stacked at certain prices. The MM's have a bad habit of filling buy orders out of the gate and dropping the price at the open .We can usually ascertain how low it might go. Come the afternoon, we can see where the large number of sells occur, and know it will go no higher than that.
