SIRI Intraday Thread Tuesday June 2, 2009

[underway]

Sorry to say Underway,but Nuclear power is NOT the answer either.it is too damn expensive and detrimental to the environment,even after 50 years we still don't have a plan to get rid of the Rods or store it...I'm in PA. and still paying for their 2 nuke plants after Deregulation with what is called Transition fee...no Nuke plant has ever recouped the price it cost to build it with all the safety regs(which are needed) to keep them on-line...And your Naieve if you think we haven't had any lethal accidents in the Navy...

I was in the Navy for 9 years active duty. The USN never had a nuke accident, meaning, sailors killed due to radiation poisoning. If I am wrong, pls let me know. True, nuke subs have gone down, but not due to radiation issues.

I hear you about cost, but I don't think we have a level playing field due to the over regulation. But, I'm not a nuke expert, so can't say. But, France relies heavily on nuke power. Not sure what their elec rates are.

[JohnnyIrishXM]

Are you kidding me most of the union guys are making more then the salarly guys. Heres a perfect example a engineer with 10 years in will make about 65,000 at Ford and some guy with no college comes in and after only 5 years in can be making 75,000 to 100,000 a year.

John,that is just not true,i have several close friends who work for GM,one is a union Safety director,you are talking maybe with 30 hours of overtime they can make that much,because they cut to the bare bones on workers and would rather pay OT than hire new worker with the benefits..New empoloyees make 17hr to start at GM,with maybe cost of living wage increases each year...

[lloyd Handwerker]

You aren't reading what I said. I absolutely said corp exec greed! I've seen it first hand. I saw union excess when I worked at Ford in the late 70s. I saw corp exec excess and greed when I worked in drug industry. I am very familiar, first hand, with all this. There is no single cause. I never said there was.

Glad to hear it because you certainly seemed to be only blaming the unions.
We can stop now and agree that there were problems up and down the chain of work at the American car industry. Lets hope they can recover somewhat and help lead SiriusXM to a bright future. The end.

[airman]

People buy Apple computers even though they are more expensive. Why do you think that is. Price is one part of the equation.
So now that the Govt plan has brought workers pay down to equal what it is in Japan everything will be just perfect with GM? Not so simple John. lots of pieces to the puzzle .
And sorry to disabuse of some beliefs you have but yes numbers do lie and lie all the time. I quess you dont watch Presidential debates do you.?Everyone can point to different facts, numbers and interpretations of all.

I think you are mixing apples and oranges here. He said

"You dont need to be a genus to figure out that if union labor cost you 3,500 dollars more then your competition to produce the same product, then something has to change."

That has more to do with the margin than the actual price of the car. Apple does charge more, but for arguably a better product and high margins. They sell less but make more per unit. Now if they had the same problems with overpaid workers they would have to sell at a higher price but have less sales and less margin. Now that wouldnt work.

And you are right it isnt "just" the unions though.

[JohnnyIrishXM]

I was in the Navy for 9 years active duty. The USN never had a nuke accident, meaning, sailors killed due to radiation poisoning. If I am wrong, pls let me know. True, nuke subs have gone down, but not due to radiation issues.

I hear you about cost, but I don't think we have a level playing field due to the over regulation. But, I'm not a nuke expert, so can't say. But, France relies heavily on nuke power. Not sure what their elec rates are.

Alot of declassified reports from the cold war era are now being Declassified,saw a PBS frontline show on it,their were something like 11 Sub related incidents in the 50's and 60's,now they are vague intentionally about deaths due to Radiation,but Russians have already come clean on a few deaths..

[john]

Actually john your wrong about that,toyota and honda are now approaching
20 years in the US and their long tenured workers make way more than that,they are begining to run into the same problems as Gm with costs going up..not anywhere near as dear as GM but still the labor cost is going up..The UAW agreed a while ago to 2 tier Salary structure to help out GM and Ford,but the main problem is their legacy promises they made to retirees decades ago,namely lifetime healthcare and the underfunded mandate on their pension plan which is drastically unfunded as it should have been..Clinton passed legislation to corporate america to force these funds to get up to speed and congress keeps pushing back the time-line on them,see protecting Corp's not unions,it is a major problem with all company pensions,but especially municipal pensions..

I agree with the pension benefits and if I recall they were suppose to pay 20 to 30 billion each to take care of that (by the way "lloyd Handwerker" another extra cost the japs didn't have) but I have friends that have told me different and what they are making. Now I am not saying if you have been there 20 years that you are not getting more but that is not what the general assembly person gets.


P.S. Hey lloyd Handwerker why dont we hit Toyota with a 20 to 30 billion dollar instant cost and see if they are not filing for bankruptcy. If I recall they also needed to get help from their government I wonder if they would have made it if they had to give them another 30 billion. All of which was because of union cost the Japs did not have to deal with and thats just one part there is still parts 2, 3, and 4.

[relmor2003]

I agree with John. For what is worth. Want to know why anyone at the top of their industry go bk?
Look at costs.
Period.
It isnt that hard.
Lloyd is trying to make the case that consumers, and sales ruined them. Not even close. Sales were never the problem. Consumers still WANT SUV's. They just cant afford them anymore. But GM cant offer a high mileage , reliable, well made car, they miss that entire market when oil goes high. That was controllable.
Labor ruined them. Period. Cant pay a guy $30 an hour to push a button. Japan is paying that guy $15 an hour, and no benefits. Plus they keep and have kept their currency just above toilet paper status for years, AND still kept their labor costs low.
Our government helped ruin them too. Taxes that other companies dont have to compete with.
Being a business owner, I know what kills me. Labor, and costs associated with labor. Then, taxes that are unavoidable. Workers comp, unemployment taxes, health care, pensions, retirement programs, etc...
Taxes and labor costs in this country choke tons of small and medium size business's.
Cant see how this didnt hurt GM but ten fold. Can you imagine just what they pay in workers comp vs. their competitors. Toyota... BMW... Honda...Nissan...
Not a level playing field.

[john]

Alot of declassified reports from the cold war era are now being Declassified,saw a PBS frontline show on it,their were something like 11 Sub related incidents in the 50's and 60's,now they are vague intentionally about deaths due to Radiation,but Russians have already come clean on a few deaths..

I hope you are not trying to compare Russian nuke subs to ours or subs from the 50s and 60s to todays.

[underway]

Just curious Underway,why is someone with a skill not many have,like vbolting seats to a floor on an assembly line,for 20 years,which is how he is at that salary,is not as important as a mortgage underwriter hired with 10 years experience at the same salary..

It's not a matter of importance. It's market economics. I agree, there are plenty of professions which are underpaid. In capitalistic society, the market dictates, in general, who is paid what. Gov't has changed that in many cases, and unions in other cases. Certainly, in my view, police officers, nurses, teachers, firefighters, in many areas are underpaid. And, certainly, most of these fat cat CEOs are overpaid. But, unless we go to a pure socialist model (yuch!), there will always be disparity in pay. I think unions serve a good purpose in some places, but are a problem in others. Where a union exists and the company can't compete due to high labor cost, there's no doubt that's a problem. Generally, the more unique a skill, the fewer people there are with that skill, the more money they are paid: supply and demand. There are exceptions of course, but the market forces usually prevail. Unions tend to disrupt that force by leveraging companies for labor peace. It is a form of legalized extortion. Don't get me wrong...there are certain industries where management should have been jailed and unions did a good thing by leveraging them to capitulate and improve pay and conditions. Complex issue.

[lloyd Handwerker]

I was in the Navy for 9 years active duty. The USN never had a nuke accident, meaning, sailors killed due to radiation poisoning. If I am wrong, pls let me know. True, nuke subs have gone down, but not due to radiation issues.

I hear you about cost, but I don't think we have a level playing field due to the over regulation. But, I'm not a nuke expert, so can't say. But, France relies heavily on nuke power. Not sure what their elec rates are.

Yes. You are no nuclear power expert so I am telling you and others who are niave supporters of the nuclear industry for the third time to read the NY times business article on the Finnish problems with their new generation french nuclear plant before you go and say anything. Reasonable no?

One persons reasonable regulation is anothers over regulation. One persons
subsidizing of the nuclear industry is anothers reasonable hand up.