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  1. Havakasha is offline
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    11-08-2011, 10:25 AM #21
    Its sad that you will do anything to avoid the science on this issue even
    after FINALLY (2 years. lol) admitting the experts agree. It irks you to no end
    that my point of view has been proved correct.

    Climate change is important to the world and it should be to you.
    I'm not an expert in physics but I sure do read and listen to what the overwhelming majority of experts say. And I sure as hell would never pretend that "I dont care and dont know anything" as you did. You have demonstrated a lack of truthfulness on this matter that should embarass you, but I doubt it will.

    I think its hysterical that you are the only person (as far as i know) on the planet
    who thinks hiring an accountant is akin to being a criminal. YOU'RE becoming a joke.

    Climate Change's Health Costs Projected To Be Enormous

    First Posted: 11/7/11 05:22 PM ET Updated: 11/8/11 07:47 AM

    A tally of lost lives and health care expenditures arising from just six recent weather-related or epidemiological events suggests that the economic toll of future climate change is likely to be even more staggering than previously thought, according to a study published Monday in the journal Health Affairs.

    The analysis, conducted by a team of researchers from the Natural Resources Defense Council, the University of California, Berkeley, and the University of California, San Francisco, represents one of the most ambitious attempts to establish a uniform method for putting a price tag on the health impacts of climate change. Most previous estimates have only looked at costs associated with property losses, damage to infrastructure and other resource forfeitures.

    "This is a problem with a human face," said Kim Knowlton, a senior scientist in the Health and Environment Program at the Natural Resources Defense Council and the lead author of the study. "Our prior notions about climate change damage without these costs included have been vastly underestimated."

    The researchers examined morbidity and mortality data -- including expenditures for hospitalization, visits to the emergency room and other medical services -- arising from a California wildfire in 2003 and a 2006 heat wave in the same state; the 2004 hurricane season in Florida; an outbreak of West Nile virus in Louisiana in 2002; a river flood two years ago in North Dakota; and nationwide ozone pollution between 2000 and 2002.

    Although none of these scenarios can be definitively linked to climate change, all six were chosen as emblematic of the types of episodes that experts expect to see more of as the planet warms. They were also selected, Knowlton said, because robust health impact data for each was available in the peer-reviewed literature.

    In reviewing that data, the researchers concluded that these six events resulted in 1,689 early deaths, 8,992 hospitalizations, 21,113 emergency department visits and 734,398 outpatient visits, with estimated costs totaling more than $14 billion. Almost all of that expense -- 95 percent -- arose from the foreshortening of human life. The researchers used a valuation developed by the Environmental Protection Agency that puts the health cost of each premature death at $7.9 million. Encounters with the health care system in these six scenarios accounted for as much as $740 million.

    The highest health costs were associated with ozone pollution, which tallied $6.5 billion, and the California heat wave, which came in at $5.4 billion.


    Differences in how cost data was tabulated in each event and other points of variability, the authors concede, may have resulted in the tally being overestimated by as much as $9.6 billion -- or underestimated by as much as $25.6 billion. But given the expected rise in the number of heat waves, flooding, and other extreme weather- and disease-related events associated with global warming -- in addition to established projections for the impact of climate change on physical infrastructure and other non-human capital -- the study suggests that the total price tag is likely to be exponentially higher than previously thought.

    Other potential expenditures -- from increased rates of food- and waterborne illnesses and lost school days for children to the costs associated with climate change's disproportionate impact on poorer communities -- also have not yet been tallied, the authors note.

    "These numbers are big," Knowlton said, "and it's important that we begin to think about and address these health costs and what climate change is likely to mean for people's health."

    Tabulating the potential costs of climate change to society has become an increasingly important pursuit for policy planners, particularly given the lack of global agreement on measures to combat the phenomenon, as well as the inability of the United States, the world's largest per-capita emitter of greenhouse gases, to pass domestic legislation that would begin curbing such emissions.

    A 2008 analysis commissioned by the Natural Resources Defense Council, for example, estimated that hurricane damage, real estate losses, energy and water costs associated with global warming could cost as much as $1.9 trillion annually by the end of the century. Various other studies, including one by the British economist Nicholas Stern, have put the potential cost at anywhere between 1 percent and 5 percent of the total national product of all countries, or the gross world product, which is currently estimated to be just over $63 trillion.

    The authors of the current study suggested that the costs could be reduced through policies aimed at ensuring adequate preparation -- heat wave warning systems at the community and workplace level, for example, or reductions in ozone-contributing pollution.

    Currently, 13 U.S. states have established specific public health measures as part of wider climate change adaptation plans. Last week, Rep. Lois Capps, a California Democrat, introduced legislation that would "direct the Secretary of Health and Human Services to develop a national strategic action plan to assist health professionals in preparing for and responding to the public health effects of climate change."

    The bill was referred to the House Committee on Energy and Commerce.
    Last edited by Havakasha; 11-08-2011 at 10:42 AM.

  2. SiriuslyLong is offline
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    11-08-2011, 02:08 PM #22
    "I'm not an expert in physics but I sure do read and listen to what the overwhelming majority of experts say"

    But you cannot possibly understand it. It's a challenge for me and I am educated in the science of physics and chemistry.

    Did you know that the sun contains over 99.8% of the mass of the solar system? WOW! It would appear that the sun is VERY influencial on our solar system. Wouldn't you think?

    http://nineplanets.org/sol.html

  3. Havakasha is offline
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    11-08-2011, 04:30 PM #23
    You made this kind of charge (you dont know anything despite all the expert information available
    in the public record) before. I believe it usually happens when you come out on the
    losing side of an argument.

    By your logic one cannot understand or form an opinion on anything outside of ones own "speciality".
    That would make most of your comments about economics and politics completely invalid.

    Im confused. Are you NOW saying AGAIN that you "dont know anything" about climate change, and "dont care" about climate change, and that climate change "is not important"?

    You did read the article this thread is based on and you did render some kind of opinion? No?
    Last edited by Havakasha; 11-08-2011 at 04:50 PM.

  4. SiriuslyLong is offline
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    11-08-2011, 05:06 PM #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Havakasha View Post
    You made this kind of charge (you dont know anything despite all the expert information available
    in the public record) before. I believe it usually happens when you come out on the
    losing side of an argument.

    By your logic one cannot understand or form an opinion on anything outside of ones own "speciality".
    That would make most of your comments about economics and politics completely invalid.

    Im confused. Are you NOW saying AGAIN that you "dont know anything" about climate change, and "dont care" about climate change, and that climate change "is not important"?

    You did read the article this thread is based on and you did render some kind of opinion? No?
    There are no winners and losers in arguments, unless that's your agenda. What I have learned in my brief time engaging on this topic is that there are many issues of which may be different.

    Yes, the world is warming. We can measure that. Yes, carbon dioxide emissions have increased several fold from the start of the industrial revolution to now - we can measure that. I have unsuccessfully sought (so far) any scientific study to show how much air and land will heat up to due increased content of carbon dioxide in "air" from 100 ppm to 400 ppm with a consistent source of radiation (yes, we can create consistent radiation to simulate sunshine - my company does it every day in our weatherometer used to accelerate ageing due to weathering.

    So, as you can see, my ability to understand this subject differs vastly from yours. My ability to be satisfied scientifically is differs vastly from yours. Heck, you claim you can't do your income taxes due to what side of your brain you think with. If I am going to totally and unequivocally accept this belief, I am going to totally and unequivocally understand it.

    In the interim, we should all be good stewards of the Earth.

  5. Havakasha is offline
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    11-08-2011, 05:27 PM #25
    Im glad you are agreeing to the fact that the earth is warming. For too long you tried to hide behind comments that
    You "knew nothing", "didnt care" and it "wasnt important".

    My "agenda" was to have a discussion of an important issue and to refute the ignorance
    and bias that most of the Republican and Consdervative wing has tried to foster on the world,
    such as statements that "the earth is cooling", and there is no such thing as climate change, its
    all a lie.
    I only wish we could all agree on its importance and work together to make changes i our policy.

    "good stewards of the earth" is open to interpretation unfortunately.
    Last edited by Havakasha; 11-08-2011 at 05:30 PM.

  6. SiriuslyLong is offline
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    11-08-2011, 05:56 PM #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Havakasha View Post
    Im glad you are agreeing to the fact that the earth is warming. For too long you tried to hide behind comments that
    You "knew nothing", "didnt care" and it "wasnt important".

    My "agenda" was to have a discussion of an important issue and to refute the ignorance
    and bias that most of the Republican and Consdervative wing has tried to foster on the world,
    such as statements that "the earth is cooling", and there is no such thing as climate change, its
    all a lie.
    I only wish we could all agree on its importance and work together to make changes i our policy.

    "good stewards of the earth" is open to interpretation unfortunately.
    I hadn't cared, and quite candidly, I think there are more pressing matters right now. You've finally badgered me into looking into it and I will as a good steward of the Earth.

  7. Havakasha is offline
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    11-08-2011, 07:22 PM #27
    You said you
    didnt "know anything". Liar.
    didnt "care about it" Good possibility.
    "knew it wasn't important". Utter contradiction if you didnt know anything.

    Now its "i think there are more important pressing matters now". Yes, there are many pressing matters.
    Thats not what we are discussing.

    i wonder why I doubt you seriously believe in being "a good steward of the earth"? lol.

  8. SiriuslyLong is offline
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    11-08-2011, 07:31 PM #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Havakasha View Post
    You said you
    didnt "know anything". Liar.
    didnt "care about it" Good possibility.
    "knew it wasn't important". Utter contradiction if you didnt know anything.

    Now its "i think there are more important pressing matters now". Yes, there are many pressing matters.
    Thats not what we are discussing.

    i wonder why I doubt you seriously believe in being "a good steward of the earth"? lol.
    It is a core belief, "we should all be good stewards of the Earth".

    Why are you arguing? You may very well be in the process of turning a suspected skeptic into a believer. Your church should celebrate your effort to spread the word. Next comes the plate, right?

  9. Havakasha is offline
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    11-08-2011, 07:54 PM #29
    I TRULY AND SERIOUSLY want to BELIEVE that when you say "we should all be good stewards of the Earth" you mean it.

    The problem is that i havent seen evidence of it particularly in the discussions around alternative energy. And then there are the real distasteful and nasty comments in the service of disparaging liberals by ocassionally slipping in references to marxism and socialism.

    Its been interesting debating you. I sincerely wish you well. Adios.
    Last edited by Havakasha; 11-08-2011 at 08:20 PM.

  10. SiriuslyLong is offline
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    11-08-2011, 08:46 PM #30
    "And then there are the real distasteful and nasty comments in the service of disparaging liberals by ocassionally slipping in references to marxism and socialism."

    There is inevitability into all our actions. Where do our actions lead us?

    I'm glad I've made this interesting. You've got me, a self described "conservative / libertarian" agreeing to more stimulus at the expense of taxing the rich, exempting income taxes for those that cannot afford them and now expressing a willingness to understand the science of global warming.

    In as much as it has been interesting, I wish I could have captured some of the things you have found interesting.

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