The Political Genuis of Supply Side Economics

[Havakasha]

I knew you'd like that line lol.

So you are saying that the tax cuts "helped propel us into a deficit mess". I think we are at an impass. The housing bubble that burst caused this mess - period. I'll stop at that.

The reason I may use some of your so called republican talking points is that what we have here with Obama is your stereotypcial tax and spend democrat. I wanted change, but not this change. This is big government getting bigger, and as I have cited so many times, there are plenty of reasons to question big government. Yet you ignore so much.

You know, I kind of hope captial gains tax is increased. It will remove one democratic whining point from your cache. lol.

Stimulus = orange barrells lol. And like I said before, I sure would have liked to get the ARRA sign contract. That had to be several million taxpayer dollars -- to make signs LOL. Money well spent. Boy, I hope they are recyclable. I may very well go steal one and brand it "America's biggest joke yet." LOL

TOTAL NONSENSE. I am disappointed in you S&L. You use Republican talking points because those are your beliefs. Plain and simple.
Obama is not a classic tax and spend Democrat. Another in a long list of Republican talking points Do you only watch Fox news because it sure seems like it? I dont know how many times i can say it, but Obama helped pass one of the biggest tax cuts in our history. He also proposed a Senate panel to find ways to cut the budget.
At least 6 Republicans agreed and then pulled out for political strategy reasons. So he appointed one anyway made up of Republicans and Democrats. In other words a bipartisan commission whose charge is to do anything they want to find new ways to cut the budget. As i have said a MILLION times ALMOST ALL economists from conservatives to progressives agree that govt had to spend during a deep recession as ours was to help right the economy. They may not agree on the siza and the emphasis of the specifics of the stimulus but they dont disagree that we had to have SPENDING> YOU'RE way out of the mainstream. Closer to the Palins of this world. LOL. Fact: the CBO has determined that the health care bill will save us BILLIONS of dollars over many years. The CBO has determined that the stimulus bill saved us MILLIONS of jobs. I know facts are an inconvenient truth when you believe something so deeply (and so false) as you do but thems are the FACTS.

For your information what i posted from huffingtonpost was a simple video clip of Timothy Geithner talking on a news channel. OOOHHHHH so scary to see an interview discussion of tax policy. Run for the hills S&L. LMFAO.

[SiriuslyLong]

TOTAL NONSENSE. I am disappointed in you S&L. You use Republican talking points because those are your beliefs. Plain and simple.
Obama is not a classic tax and spend Democrat. Another in a long list of Republican talking points Do you only watch Fox news because it sure seems like it? I dont know how many times i can say it, but Obama helped pass one of the biggest tax cuts in our history. He also proposed a Senate panel to find ways to cut the budget.
At least 6 Republicans agreed and then pulled out for political strategy reasons. So he appointed one anyway made up of Republicans and Democrats. In other words a bipartisan commission whose charge is to do anything they want to find new ways to cut the budget. As i have said a MILLION times ALMOST ALL economists from conservatives to progressives agree that govt had to spend during a deep recession as ours was to help right the economy. They may not agree on the siza and the emphasis of the specifics of the stimulus but they dont disagree that we had to have SPENDING> YOU'RE way out of the mainstream. Closer to the Palins of this world. LOL. Fact: the CBO has determined that the health care bill will save us BILLIONS of dollars over many years. The CBO has determined that the stimulus bill saved us MILLIONS of jobs. I know facts are an inconvenient truth when you believe something so deeply (and so false) as you do but thems are the FACTS.

For your information what i posted from huffingtonpost was a simple video clip of Timothy Geithner talking on a news channel. OOOHHHHH so scary to see an interview discussion of tax policy. Run for the hills S&L. LMFAO.

If he passed one of the biggest tax breaks in history, where is it? I enter my pay into Quicken twice a month. It hasn't changed one bit. I just coughed up 4 grand for property tax. That wasn't reduced. Look, I'm not "rich" as you like to brand people. I'd love some tax relief.

Listen, the facts are not incovenient, but I'm telling you the damn truth. I don't see it. Period. Nor does Candleman, and I'm not putting words into his mouth. Can you get off your partisan soap box and respect that? I see lots of signs and orange barrells, and yes they created jobs, but for a very limited sector.

I will agree in principle that I am more conservative than liberal. Isn't that just shocking. But I will stop at defending Bush. He was a dissappointment, and I have shared that with you in the past. That's why I didn't vote for McCain -- that and Palin.

And say that Obama is not a classic tax and spend liberal -- look at these programs, please. Look how much government is being created -- that's spending. For what? To cap credit card rates?

[Havakasha]

i will provide you the articles for the tax cuts. I thought you might have heard about them but maybe you are too busy listening to Fox news and Michelle Bachman to know about them. lol. This is getting a little silly.

Glad to hear again about your disappointment about Bush and not voting for McCain. Still you got to examine more carefully some of your beliefs and your statements cause they line up completely with what the Republicans and Fox news say.

[Havakasha]

Here is one of the articles about the PROPOSED obama tax cuts for businesses and individuals. I will get you more concerning the final legislation

http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ...694652423.html

[Havakasha]

Here is another.

http://blog.beliefnet.com/stevenwald...e-biggest.html

I will get your more later unless you cry uncle now. I have to go out for work. Have a good day.

[SiriuslyLong]

I'll have to get to them later. I'm out in CA on a "solar tour". Interestingly, one provider of solar accessories just yesterday indicated that without government intervention, solar isn't worth it - it isn't there yet. I'm kind of glad that the US is a late adobter. At least we will have a chance to improve it.

[Havakasha]

Even though we are off topic:

Depends which kind of solar you are talking about. Solar hot water is a good choice right now. Photovoltaics will take longer for a return on your money, although i will be putting them in on my new house. The U.S. has to get in the hunt now because China is pouring money into solar manufacturing.
Lets not forget the many billions of help all other forms of energy have gotten over the years.

Solar-Power Industry Hits Magic Number
TOPICS:Economy (U.S.) | Technology | Politics & Government | Green: The Color of Money | Alternative Energy | Energy
COMPANIES:Canadian Solar Inc. | Applied Materials Inc | PG and E Corp | Edison International
By: Trevor Curwin, , Special to CNBC.com | 28 Jul 2010 | 12:29 PM ET Text Size
While some investors feel they're still waiting for the sun to rise on the solar energy industry, it's already high noon for some parts of the sector.

In some places in the U.S. today, solar photovoltaic, PV, technology—the iconic glass panels being deployed on home and business rooftops—already allows users to beat what their local utility charges for electricity generated from coal-fired power plants.

"It makes sense if you look at it as a [retail] ratepayer," says Ted Sullivan, senior analyst at Lux Research. "We're there today."

For example, Californian utilities charge up to 40 cents/kwh for retail power users, while an installed solar PV system costs up to 18 cents/kwh.

The cost-benefit analysis, of course, depends mainly on local issues, like the rates utilities charge, the premium cost of using energy at peak demand times and the intensity of the sun in any given area.


"As an industry we've allowed ourselves to be painted into a corner."

Doug Payne
SolarTech
Generally speaking though, solar energy users can expect a quick return on investment for installing PV panels and enjoy cheap energy for the system's lifetime, often guaranteed for 20 years or more.

Solar industry insiders argue that promoting out solar technology in a distributed manner—from the "end user up" rather than from the "power plant down"—better captures the real value of solar energy, versus trying to compare the cost of kilowatt generated from coal versus one generated from solar, or "grid parity."

"As an industry we've allowed ourselves to be painted into a corner," says Doug Payne, executive director of the solar industry trade group SolarTech, about aiming for grid parity while minimizing the industry's real efforts at saving their customers' money over retail electricity costs.


source: Canadian Solar

Large-scale, solar-power plant initiatives by utilities such as PG&E [PGE 0.13 --- UNCH ]and Edison International [EIX 33.83 0.11 (+0.33%) ] are in place mostly to satisfy state mandates for renewable power generation and, to date, cost far more than coal's generation price of 8 cents/kwh or less.

Proponents are also trying to move beyond another drawback--the intermittent nature of utility-scale, solar power; since the sun doesn't shine all day, solar power isn't dispatchable on a moment's notice, and thus requires pairing with another energy source or storage system that isn't commercially viable yet. This also increases a solar power plant's costs.

Analysts say the issue largely disappears with the demand-side model. Utilities won't be swapping a 100-megawatt solar farm for a 100-megawatt coal-fired power plant to distribute power. Instead, distribution will be served by installing solar panels on rooftops, adding a few kilowatts of power at a time.

This model makes "economic viability visible on the horizon," says Deutsche Bank's solar research team, which predicts that distributed solar power generation costs could hit 10 cents/kwh or less in some geographies within three to six years.

SolarTech's Payne says commercial electricity users can benefit even sooner. "We're at a tipping point on the next 12-to-24 months," he says.

In the near future, several developments could make solar energy even more cost effective and coal-fired power more expensive.

The efficiency of the solar cells themselves has increased, with PV panels achieving an all-time high of 23 percent efficiency in the field, but Payne and others warn that won't continue indefinitely.
Additional savings will come from squeezing supply-chain costs by "commoditizing" solar panel modules from panel makers like Canadian Solar [CSIQ 13.37 0.14 (+1.06%) ] and sourcing module components efficiently from materials firms like Applied Materials [AMAT 12.341 -0.269 (-2.13%) ]. Standardizing installation procedures will also reduce labor costs.

"It'll happen much the same way that Formula -1 car [technology] trickles down to mass production vehicles," says Payne..

Meanwhile, the coal-fired, power-plant model is challenged more than ever, facing higher commodity prices, greater regulation and mechanical obsolescence.

The nation's portfolio of coal-fired power plants, with an average age of over 40 years, will need replacing soon, and while a national cap-and-trade law seems to be dead, the Environmental Protection Agency, as well as regional associations of state governments, may soon fill the climate change regulatory void.

For utilities, any new carbon-emissions rules will raise the replacement price for these plants, and will force them to look at other fuel sources, including solar, for future projects.

While the solar sector is still young, the economic viability of solar PV is proving itself, analysts say, and with some government assistance at this crucial stage, it could provide much needed economic and job growth.

"Creating a vibrant solar PV industry in the US can be done but thus far has not been," says the Deutsche Bank report. "The US can either wait for solar PV electricity costs to decline [further] and then chase an industry established elsewhere, or lead with the development of a [domestic] solar PV industry."

[SiriuslyLong]

Thanks for the articles Lloyd. You tickled me a little with this one, "The U.S. has to get in the hunt now because China is pouring money into solar manufacturing."

One anology is that if rats where jumping off the dock, should we follow them? Secondly, China, in their recent past, hasn't been known for innovation. But they can buy it from us (don't forget, they have a lot of $$$$ to spend due to our national debt).

I'm still skeptical, but understand that solar can be for the greater good of society, and can put jobs in place. I met with 4 companies today (what a day). One is a well established multinational, but the other 3 were smaller companies trying to break through. The history of one was in the lobby; lots of federal money, and the company is burning it (burn rate undisclosed). If they don't get a contract soon.................. The other made mention of, "we're one of the ones who will make it."

I do like the distributed model. One company recently had an installation in the SW for a municipality. Should be interesting as it progresses.

[SiriuslyLong]

And about your fixation with Michelle Bachman, have you told your wife??

Listen, I cited her once where when questioned about partisanship, she simply indicated that in comittee, Barney Frank simply took a dump on "republican" ideas. Now her past may be checkered, but it should be clear by now that the democrats are political animals as well (witness the Obama article I have posted).

So, please do drop that talking point. I am not republican, nor am I from MN. I don't care about her politics, but if she is genuinely experiencing partisanship from democrats, it is worth discussing, no?

[Havakasha]

My wife knows all about Michelle Bachman. Hint: She isnt jealous. Lol.
She is the ultimate wacky ULTRA partisan politician. Do a little research.

Something tells me that China isnt making a mistake going big into solar and wind. Watch the growth of these industries in the next 10 years. Its going to be very large.