So much for a nice carefree Sunday morning LOL.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Havakasha

All you could come up with in this entire financial collapse on Wall Street is Tony Hayward (who has nothing to do with it)? What a goddamn joke.

Many corporate heads these days make way too much money (salaries are way out of wack) and dont give a shit if they bring down the whole system just as long as they make their millions.

And by the way, BP's Tony Hayward left with benefits valued at more than $18 million dollars. Wow that is some REAL punishment.

Politicians CAN be voted out of office (in the House every 2 years). The problem is the political system (dont hear you taking me up on my suggestion to get money out of politics and to reform the system) and the citizens who vote for many of the jerks.Too many of these so called citizens dont do the homework citizenship requires. Many listen to Fox news all the time and dont know the goddamn FACTS on just about anything.

You just dont get it S&L. I dont hate all corporations or corporate heads i just hate what SOME of them have done to our country and what some Politicians have allowed them to get away with. You seem to hate Govt PERIOD and thats just plain stupid. Go read David Brooks column in the other thread please.

P.S. I am starting to think you might need electric shock therapy for your ABSOLUTE fixation on fannie and freddie as the cause of everything. You seem stuck on Fox news talking points and i had thought you were way smarter than that. I am really surprised with what seems to be your lack of ability or interest in taking new information and incorporating it into your world view. Again please read David Brooks column about Govt and Republicans.

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If I'm fixated, then you are equally fixated. After all, we are discussing contrary points.

In regards to the David Brooks article, I have read it and agree that the republicans have lost their way. That's why I have abandend the party. His comments about accepting "more government" do bother me.

Government growth and reach has done nothing but increase - every day, every week, every month, every year. Please agree, and don't make me post the Parade Magazine article again.

So I'm assuming you will agree. The growth and reach of our federal government has done nothing but increase with time. Ok, now let's discuss effectiveness. I mean, really, do you want to discuss that - bureaucratic mess after mess after mess? I don't give a $hit if it was Bush's fault or Obama's fault or 100 years of polictical abuse. You see, that's were you and I cannot meet. You want it to be your advesaries fault. To me, it is simply government, and on a one way street of increasing size and reach.

So when I bitch about what Obama is doing, it is in that context. He took the wheels of the bus and is doing the same thing - growing govenments size and reach. It's sad, because I know you are part of the half of Americans who pay taxes, like me. Our tax dollars get less and less useful to real causes. I would think that would piss you off.

Candidly and truthfully, I cannot understand why you are so concerned with CEO pay. I really don't get it. It's like you're bitter and jealous or something. To me, someone achieved. Good for them. I'm stuck selling plastic because I couldn't acheive any higher.

Headline news: CA will need a bailout. LA is broke.

S&L i have tried to show you that almost ALL economists believed it was necessary to have a large stimulus package to keep the economy from falling even further.There is a BIG difference between "growing govt" in this instance out of necessity and having it grow in general.

Of course i agree that gov't has grown in terms of money spent. I just think its too simplistic as Mr. Brooks lays out to simply say "smaller govt" is the panacea for everything. It isnt.
I certainly believe that there are govt programs that are essential to our society's well being and that there will always be a need for new ones to solve future problems.

I hope you agree with me on some ways to reform govt? Thats where we can start making some changes.

I AM NOT BITTER OR JEALOUS about CEO's pay. i live VERY WELL thank you.
I greatly respect people who work hard and honestly rise to the top.
i care however that some CEO's salaries have gotten so far out of balance in relation to the rest of peoples pay that is has distorted the whole economic system. You dont deserve a 50 million retirement package if you have
lost the company money and driven the stock price way down. This happens every day of the week. Something is awfully wrong. I can throw lots of studies and statistics at you about this (it seems like i may have to).

Lots of states are in trouble in their budgets as are individual people and individual companies. Everyone has been spending beyond their means.

You know, I'm watching Fox News right now. They just had a head to head - Democrat vs. Republican - on taxes. The US is phucked. These two parties are so polarized. That's how the government became so bureaucratic. Concessions are in the form of pork. We need a serious third party.

To your post.

1.) "S&L i have tried to show you that almost ALL economists believed it was necessary to have a large stimulus package to keep the economy from falling even further.There is a BIG difference between "growing govt" in this instance out of necessity and having it grow in general."

There's always a reason - recession, war, Katrina, health care, financial "reform", unfair housing practices....

2.) "Of course i agree that gov't has grown in terms of money spent. I just think its too simplistic as Mr. Brooks lays out to simply say "smaller govt" is the panacea for everything. It isnt.
I certainly believe that there are govt programs that are essential to our society's well being and that there will always be a need for new ones to solve future problems."

What I love is the politicians knee jerk reaction - have a hurricane, create a dept. Have an oil embargo - creat a dept. 10% of Americans don't have health care insurance, so pass a bill effecting 100%.... As noted earlier in the inflammatory video link, once a government job is created.... It only grows from there. I will agree that there are essential parts of our government. No question.

3.) "I hope you agree with me on some ways to reform govt? Thats where we can start making some changes."

Yes I can! But unlike you, I don't have the faith you do. Why would politicians want reform? They're in power. It's counter intuitive.

I'm still not buying. My beliefs are not too far off. Governments around the world are downsizing and practicing common sense. I fully believe that we can downsize AND stimulate. How about that? How about the federal government increase the effectiveness of each tax dollar collected AND reach out into the private sector to stimulate the economy?

You know, there is a little human nature in play here. I used to color match plastics. Every practicioner of color matching I've ever met would say "it's too dark, add more white". I took a different tact - if it was too dark, I'd remove the dark. Every government solution adds. It's a pity.

Enjoy your Fox news education. Avoid their talking points at all costs. lol.

Nothing wrong at all with more efficient and less wasteful govt. I like it as long as they are helping to solve our energy, health care, education, environmental,etc. problems. If they are ignoring them or pushing them out to the future then we are in a heap of trouble (which we are in right now because of negligence going back decades).
I think David Brooks does a good job of destroying this simplistic talking point that politicians spout to get elected that simply making govt smaller will allow us to solve all the worlds problem.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_homela...urity_bulletin

Here's a real time illustration.

You mean govt makes mistakes just like people, corporations etc.? Absolutely shocking. Yawn. lol.

Do you support campaign finance reform by any chance? In other words trying to get money out of politics. It will never happen but certainly the goal i support.

So much for buyer beware!!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Govt-s...&asset=&ccode=

And who else but Barney Frank weighs in at the end of the article.

States cutting government benefits

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/States...&asset=&ccode=

Greenspan - less stimulus, more taxes

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2010/...than-expected/

So do you support "less stimulus" and MORE TAXES? LOL.

Watch out that those state cuts dont end up causing more damage than the pensions. Should get very interesting.

DO you support getting money out of politics through campaign finance reform? I have asked you 4 times already. Jeez.

Obstacle to Deficit Cutting: A Nation on Entitlements

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000..._WSJ_US_News_5

Good article. Short concise history of entitlements. This article really underscores my point earlier. The solution is either raise taxes or cut benefits. How about a more effective system? In a competitive industry, I'll try to make more widgets than you. Then you innovate and make more than me. That's call productivity / innovation. Oops, there is no competition; hence no incentive to improve productivity.

The Great American Stickup

Posted: September 14, 2010 09:47 AM

Excerpted from 'The Great American Stickup'


"It Was the Economy, Stupid"


"How did this happen?" ~ President George W. Bush


"It was a humbling question for someone from the financial sector to be asked--after all, we were the ones responsible." ~ Treasury Secretary Henry M. Paulson Jr., former Goldman Sachs CEO


They did it.

Yes, there is a "they": the captains of finance, their lobbyists, and allies among leading politicians of both parties, who together destroyed an American regulatory system that had been functioning splendidly for most of the six decades since it was enacted in the 1930s.
The big cop-out in much of what has been written about the banking meltdown has been the argument by those most complicit that there was "enough blame to go around" and that no institution or individual should be singled out for accountability. "How could we have known?" is the refrain of those who continue to pose as all-knowing experts. "Everybody made mistakes," they say.

Nonsense. This was a giant hustle that served the richest of the rich and left the rest of us holding the bag, a life-altering game of musical chairs in which the American public was the one forced out. Worst of all, legislators from both political parties we elect and pay to protect our interests from the pirates who assaulted us instead changed our laws to enable them.

The most pathetic of excuses is the one provided by Robert Rubin, who fathered "Rubinomics," the economy policy of President Clinton's two-term administration: The economy ran into a "perfect storm," a combination of unforeseen but disastrously interrelated events. This rationalization is all too readily accepted by the mass media, which is not surprising, given that it neatly absolves the majority of business reporters and editors who had missed the story for years until it was too late.

The facts are otherwise. It is not conspiratorial but rather accurate to suggest that blame can be assigned to those who consciously developed and implemented a policy of radical financial deregulation that led to a global recession. As President Clinton's Treasury secretary, Rubin, the former cochair of Goldman Sachs, led the fight to free the financial markets from regulation and then went on to a $15-million-a-year job with Citigroup, the company that had most energetically lobbied for that deregulation. He should remember the line from the old cartoon strip Pogo: "We have met the enemy and he is us."

For it was this Wall Street and Democratic Party darling, along with his clique of economist super-friends -- Alan Greenspan, Lawrence Summers, and a few others -- who inflated a giant real estate bubble by purposely not regulating the derivatives market, resulting in oceans of money that was poured into bad loans sold as safe investments. In the process, they not only caused an avalanche of pain and misery when the bubble inevitably burst but also shredded the good reputation of the American banking system nurtured since the Great Depression.

If we accept a broad dispersal of blame or a sense of inevitability -- or simply ignore the details, since they can be so confusing -- we lose the opportunity to rearrange our institutions to prevent such disasters from happening again.

That this is true has only been reinforced by the tentative response of the Obama administration in its first year. Even after a crash that economists agree is the biggest since the granddaddy of 1929, the president's proposed reform legislation stops far short of reintroducing the kind of regulation of the markets that prevented such disasters in the intervening eighty years. We still see a persistent fear, stoked by the same folks that led us into this abyss, that regulation and scrutiny will kill the golden goose of Wall Street profits and, by extension, U.S. prosperity.

If we as a people learn anything from this crash, however, it should be that there are no adults watching the store, only a tiny elite of self-interested multimillionaires and billionaires making decisions for the rest of us. As long as we cede that power to them, we can expect to continue getting bilked.

Three key myths consistently propagated about the financial markets proved devastating in this event. The first is that buyers and sellers are all logical and well informed about what they are doing, so the markets will always be "corrected" to provide accurate price values. The second is that whatever happens in these "free markets," the general public will not be hurt -- only irresponsible gamblers will lose their shirts. The third is that whenever the government gets involved, it will only screw things up; even if regulators only ask questions, it will poison the pond and spook the fish, to everybody's detriment.

All of these assumptions were proven false; the brave new world order of super-rational high-tech derivative marketing based on a Nobel Prize-winning mathematical model turned out to be a prescription for financial madness. A win-win system too good to be true turned out to be a cruel hoax in which most suffered terribly -- and not just that majority of the world's population that suffers from the whims of the market, but even some who designed and sold the new financial gimmicks. Left to their own devices, freed of rational regulatory restraint by an army of lobbyists and the politicians who serve them, one after another of the very top financial conglomerates imploded from the weight of their uncontrolled greed. Or would have imploded, as in the examples of Citigroup and AIG, if the government had not used taxpayer dollars to bail out those "too big to fail" conglomerates.

Along the way, these companies -- including the privatized quasi-governmental Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac monstrosities -- were exposed as poorly run juggernauts, with top executives having embarrassingly little grasp of the chicanery and risk taking that was bolstering their bottom-lines. Worst of all, damage from this economic chain reaction didn't, of course, stop at the bank accounts of Saudi investors or American CEOs but led to soaring unemployment and federal debt, the acceleration of the home foreclosure epidemic, massive unemployment, and the wholesale destruction of pension plans and state education budgets.

You really should read this all S&L. It gives some blame to Clinton.


Robert ScheerEditor of Truthdig.com, Author, 'The Great American Stickup'
Posted: September 15, 2010 07:47 AM

'The Great American Stickup': Is Bush Really To Blame For The Economy?

Part II: The first half of this chapter was excerpted on the Huffington Post yesterday, here.

Since the collapse happened on the watch of President George W. Bush at the end of two full terms in office, many in the Democratic Party were only too eager to blame his administration. Yet while Bush did nothing to remedy the problem, and his response was to simply reward the culprits, the roots of this disaster go back much further, to the free-market propaganda of the Reagan years and, most damagingly, to the bipartisan deregulation of the banking industry undertaken with the full support of "liberal" President Clinton. Yes, Clinton. And if this debacle needs a name, it should most properly be called "the Clinton bubble," as difficult as it may be to accept for those of us who voted for him.

Clinton, being a smart person and an astute politician, did not use old ideological arguments to do away with New Deal restrictions on the banking system, which had been in place ever since the Great Depression threatened the survival of capitalism. His were the words of technocrats, arguing that modern technology, globalization, and the increased sophistication of traders meant the old concerns and restrictions were outdated. By "modernizing" the economy, so the promise went, we would free powerful creative energies and create new wealth for a broad spectrum of Americans -- not to mention boosting the Democratic Party enormously, both politically and financially.

And it worked: Traditional banks freed by the dissolution of New Deal regulations became much more aggressive in investing deposits, snapping up financial services companies in a binge of acquisitions. These giant conglomerates then bet long on a broad and limitless expansion of the economy, making credit easy and driving up the stock and real estate markets to unseen heights. Increasingly complicated yet wildly profitable securities--especially so-called over-the-counter derivatives (OTC), which, as their name suggests, are financial instruments derived from other assets or products -- proved irresistible to global investors, even though few really understood what they were buying. Those transactions in suspect derivatives were negotiated in markets that had been freed from the obligations of government regulation and would grow in the year 2009 to more than $600 trillion.

Beginning in the early '90s, this innovative system for buying and selling debt grew from a boutique, almost experimental, Wall Street business model to something so large that, when it collapsed a little more than a decade later, it would cause a global recession. Along the way, only a few people possessed enough knowledge and integrity to point out that the growth and profits it was generating were, in fact, too good to be true.

Until it all fell apart in such grand fashion, turning some of the most prestigious companies in the history of capitalism into bankrupt beggars, all the key players in the derivatives markets were happy as pigs in excrement. At the bottom, a plethora of aggressive lenders was only too happy to sign up folks for mortgages and other loans they could not afford because those loans could be bundled and sold in the market as collateralized debt obligations (CDOs). The investment banks were thrilled to have those new CDOs to sell, their clients liked the absurdly high returns being paid -- even if they really had no clear idea what they were buying -- and the "swap" sellers figured they were taking no risk at all, since the economy seemed to have entered a phase in which it had only one direction: up.

Of course, this was ridiculous on the face of it. Could it really be so easy? What was the catch? Never mind that, you spoiler! Not only were those making the millions and billions off the OTC derivatives market ecstatic, so were the politicians, bought off by Wall Street, who were sitting in the driver's seat while the bubble was inflating. With credit so easy, consumers went on a binge, buying everything in sight, which in turn was a boon to the bricks-and-mortar economy. Blown upward by all this "irrational exuberance," as then Federal Reserve Bank chair Alan Greenspan noted in one of his more honest moments, the stock market soared, creating the era of e-trade and a middle-class that eagerly awaited each quarterly 401(k) report.

Later, in the rubble, consumer borrowers would be scapegoated for the crash. This is the same logic as blaming passengers of a discount airline for their deaths if it turned out the plane had been flown by a monkey. Shouldn't they have known they should pay more? In reality, the gushing profits of the collateralized debt markets meant the original lenders had no motive to actually vet the recipients--they wouldn't be trying to collect the debt themselves anyway. Instead, they would do almost anything to entreat consumers to borrow far beyond their means, reassuring them in a booming economy they'd be suckers not to buy, buy, buy.
That this madness was allowed to develop without significant government supervision or critical media interest, despite the inherent instability and predictable future damage of a system of growth predicated on its own inevitability, is a tribute to the almost limitless power of Wall Street lobbyists and the corruption of political leaders who did their bidding while sacrificing the public's interest.

While much has been made of the baffling complexity of the new market structures at the heart of the banking meltdown, there were informed and prescient observers who in real time saw through these gimmicks. The potential for damage was thus known inside the halls of power to those who cared to know, if only because of heroines like gutsy regulator Brooksley Born, chair of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission from 1996 to 1999. When they attempted to sound the alarm, however, they were ignored, or worse. Simply put, the rewards in both financial remuneration and advanced careers were such that those in a position to profit went along with great enthusiasm. Those who objected, like Born, were summarily crushed.

Of the leaders responsible, five names come prominently to mind: Alan Greenspan, the longtime head of the Federal Reserve; Robert Rubin, who served as Treasury secretary in the Clinton administration; Lawrence Summers, who succeeded him in that capacity; and the two top Republicans in Congress back in the 1990s dealing with finance, Phil Gramm and James Leach.

Arrayed most prominently against them, far, far down the DC power ladder, were two female regulators, Born and Sheila Bair (an appointee of Bush I and II and retained as FDIC chair by Obama). They never had a chance, though; they were facing a juggernaut: The combined power of the Wall Street lobbyists allied with popular President Clinton, who staked his legacy on reassuring the titans of finance a Democrat could serve their interests better than any Republican.

Clinton's role was decisive in turning Ronald Reagan's obsession with an unfettered free market into law. Reagan, that fading actor recast so effectively as great propagandist for the unregulated market -- "get government off our backs" was his patented rallying cry -- was far more successful at deregulating smokestack industries than the financial markets. It would take a new breed of "triangulating" technocrat Democrats to really dismantle the carefully built net designed, after the last Great Depression, to restrain Wall Street from its pattern of periodic self-immolations.

Clinton betrayed the wisdom of Franklin Delano Roosevelt's New Deal reforms that capitalism needed to be saved from its own excess in order to survive, that the free market would remain free only if it was properly regulated in the public interest. The great and terrible irony of capitalism is that if left unfettered, it inexorably engineers its own demise, through either revolution or economic collapse. The guardians of capitalism's survival are thus not the self-proclaimed free-marketers, who, in defiance of the pragmatic Adam Smith himself, want to chop away at all government restraints on corporate actions, but rather liberals, at least those in the mode of FDR, who seek to harness its awesome power while keeping its workings palatable to a civilized and progressive society.

Government regulation of the market economy arose during the New Deal out of a desire to save capitalism rather than destroy it. Whether it was child labor in dark coal mines, the exploitation of racially segregated human beings to pick cotton, or the unfathomable devastation of the Great Depression, the brutal creativity of the pure profit motive has always posed a stark challenge to our belief that we are moral creatures. The modern bureaucratic governments of the developed world were built, unconsciously, as a bulwark, something big enough to occasionally stand up to the power of uncontrolled market forces, much as a referee must show the yellow card to a young headstrong athlete.

Only one more, then I'll stop. Learned something new today. Cost of Government day. It's not an alien concept. Just like in business, at some point during the fiscal year you've made enough to cover your fixed costs. After that date, gross margin is profit. Check it out.

http://www.costofgovernmentday.com/

Suffice to say, some will not like what these folks have to say.

Lets both promise to read each others posts ok? I cant wait to hear what you
say about the articles on the economy i posted.

And please do comment about campaign fiance reform ok?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Havakasha

So do you support "less stimulus" and MORE TAXES? LOL.

Watch out that those state cuts dont end up causing more damage than the pensions. Should get very interesting.

DO you support getting money out of politics through campaign finance reform? I have asked you 4 times already. Jeez.

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Yes! I already said that somewhere. I think.

Good articles Havakasha. There were too many points to counter or endorse, but all in all they were good articles. I'll try to highlight some thoughts. The whole Clinton aspect is far too new for me to embrace. Back then, I was young and didn't care. It seems as if the author is saying that if the mentioned individuals did not change regulations, these MBS would not have been freely created and traded. I can't validate or challange that.

1.) My point about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac has been that government policy helped drive the market to what it had become. Whehter it be a lot or a little, we can debate, but without that policy, I am quite certain we'd be in a much different place. This is the way I feel about it, "Worst of all, legislators from both political parties we elect and pay to protect our interests from the pirates who assaulted us instead changed our laws to enable them."


2.) I appreciate the assertion that both politicians and business people are seen as complicit. All of us loathe the abuse of power, "Those who objected, like Born, were summarily crushed."

3.) I most certainly agree that government has a role in private markets. Yes, capitalism unfetted did have kids in the coal mine, and other unsafe working conditions. Though, I wouldn't believe that we would regress to that behavior from where we are today.

4.) Regarding the big banks and their risky derivatives. It would have been nice for Fanny and Freddie to say "hey, I ain't touching that $hit". They needed to pull an old Nancy Reagan saying, "no". Retrospect is perfect. What do you think would have happened if FMFM said "I ain't buying that $hitpile, go sell it to Lehman Bros."

Interesting for sure.