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  1. Atypical is offline
    09-14-2009, 01:42 PM #21

    Canadian Doctor

    Monday 03 August 2009

    by: Michael M. Rachlis | The Los Angeles Times


    Canadian hospitals, which operate under a universal health program, offer the same opportunities for surgery as American hospitals - despite the fact that no candidates for surgery are denied for financial reasons. (Photo: Artur Bergman / flickr)

    The caricature of "socialized medicine" is used by corporate interests to confuse Americans and maintain their bottom lines instead of patients' health.

    Universal health insurance is on the American policy agenda for the fifth time since World War II. In the 1960s, the U.S. chose public coverage for only the elderly and the very poor, while Canada opted for a universal program for hospitals and physicians' services. As a policy analyst, I know there are lessons to be learned from studying the effect of different approaches in similar jurisdictions. But, as a Canadian with lots of American friends and relatives, I am saddened that Americans seem incapable of learning them.

    Our countries are joined at the hip. We peacefully share a continent, a British heritage of representative government and now ownership of GM. And, until 50 years ago, we had similar health systems, healthcare costs and vital statistics.

    The U.S.' and Canada's different health insurance decisions make up the world's largest health policy experiment. And the results?

    On coverage, all Canadians have insurance for hospital and physician services. There are no deductibles or co-pays. Most provinces also provide coverage for programs for home care, long-term care, pharmaceuticals and durable medical equipment, although there are co-pays.

    On the U.S. side, 46 million people have no insurance, millions are underinsured and healthcare bills bankrupt more than 1 million Americans every year.

    Lesson No. 1: A single-payer system would eliminate most U.S. coverage problems.

    On costs, Canada spends 10% of its economy on healthcare; the U.S. spends 16%. The extra 6% of GDP amounts to more than $800 billion per year. The spending gap between the two nations is almost entirely because of higher overhead. Canadians don't need thousands of actuaries to set premiums or thousands of lawyers to deny care. Even the U.S. Medicare program has 80% to 90% lower administrative costs than private Medicare Advantage policies. And providers and suppliers can't charge as much when they have to deal with a single payer.

    Lessons No. 2 and 3: Single-payer systems reduce duplicative administrative costs and can negotiate lower prices.

    Because most of the difference in spending is for non-patient care, Canadians actually get more of most services. We see the doctor more often and take more drugs. We even have more lung transplant surgery. We do get less heart surgery, but not so much less that we are any more likely to die of heart attacks. And we now live nearly three years longer, and our infant mortality is 20% lower.

    Lesson No. 4: Single-payer plans can deliver the goods because their funding goes to services, not overhead.

    The Canadian system does have its problems, and these also provide important lessons. Notwithstanding a few well-publicized and misleading cases, Canadians needing urgent care get immediate treatment. But we do wait too long for much elective care, including appointments with family doctors and specialists and selected surgical procedures. We also do a poor job managing chronic disease.

    However, according to the New York-based Commonwealth Fund, both the American and the Canadian systems fare badly in these areas. In fact, an April U.S. Government Accountability Office report noted that U.S. emergency room wait times have increased, and patients who should be seen immediately are now waiting an average of 28 minutes. The GAO has also raised concerns about two- to four-month waiting times for mammograms.

    On closer examination, most of these problems have little to do with public insurance or even overall resources. Despite the delays, the GAO said there is enough mammogram capacity.

    These problems are largely caused by our shared politico-cultural barriers to quality of care. In 19th century North America, doctors waged a campaign against quacks and snake-oil salesmen and attained a legislative monopoly on medical practice. In return, they promised to set and enforce standards of practice. By and large, it didn't happen. And perverse incentives like fee-for-service make things even worse.

    Using techniques like those championed by the Boston-based Institute for Healthcare Improvement, providers can eliminate most delays. In Hamilton, Ontario, 17 psychiatrists have linked up with 100 family doctors and 80 social workers to offer some of the world's best access to mental health services. And in Toronto, simple process improvements mean you can now get your hip assessed in one week and get a new one, if you need it, within a month.

    Lesson No. 5: Canadian healthcare delivery problems have nothing to do with our single-payer system and can be fixed by re-engineering for quality.

    U.S. health policy would be miles ahead if policymakers could learn these lessons. But they seem less interested in Canada's, or any other nation's, experience than ever. Why?

    American democracy runs on money. Pharmaceutical and insurance companies have the fuel. Analysts see hundreds of billions of premiums wasted on overhead that could fund care for the uninsured. But industry executives and shareholders see bonuses and dividends.

    Compounding the confusion is traditional American ignorance of what happens north of the border, which makes it easy to mislead people. Boilerplate anti-government rhetoric does the same. The U.S. media, legislators and even presidents have claimed that our "socialized" system doesn't let us choose our own doctors. In fact, Canadians have free choice of physicians. It's Americans these days who are restricted to "in-plan" doctors.

    Unfortunately, many Americans won't get to hear the straight goods because vested interests are promoting a caricature of the Canadian experience.

    ---------

    Michael M. Rachlis is a physician, health policy analyst and author in Toronto.
    »

  2. lloyd Handwerker is offline
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    lloyd Handwerker's Avatar
    Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 524
    09-14-2009, 01:46 PM #22
    Yes changing the subject can be a good strategy sometimes.
    You mean we are supposed to be talking about investing in a politics thread?
    Didnt know that. But then anything beats arguing with John. Always fun to be insulted by a guy who THINKS HE KNOWS EVERYTHING but really doesnt know much. LOL. (i know you would never say that. Like i said you're a better man than i Candeleman).
    Well i still hold the bulk of my Sirius stock. Unloaded some today in my IRA at close to .65 since i hear so much talk of possible retrenchment in the market and in SXM. Took profits since i bought most of my shares at a very low price. i will be looking to buy them back if the stock goes into the 50's. I am a long term investor so i am patient.
    Same with my alternative energy stocks. Just waiting for lower prices to buy some more. Very long term investment on those.
    Have a good day.

  3. lloyd Handwerker is offline
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    lloyd Handwerker's Avatar
    Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 524
    09-14-2009, 01:48 PM #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Atypical View Post
    Monday 03 August 2009

    by: Michael M. Rachlis | The Los Angeles Times


    Canadian hospitals, which operate under a universal health program, offer the same opportunities for surgery as American hospitals - despite the fact that no candidates for surgery are denied for financial reasons. (Photo: Artur Bergman / flickr)

    The caricature of "socialized medicine" is used by corporate interests to confuse Americans and maintain their bottom lines instead of patients' health.

    Universal health insurance is on the American policy agenda for the fifth time since World War II. In the 1960s, the U.S. chose public coverage for only the elderly and the very poor, while Canada opted for a universal program for hospitals and physicians' services. As a policy analyst, I know there are lessons to be learned from studying the effect of different approaches in similar jurisdictions. But, as a Canadian with lots of American friends and relatives, I am saddened that Americans seem incapable of learning them.

    Our countries are joined at the hip. We peacefully share a continent, a British heritage of representative government and now ownership of GM. And, until 50 years ago, we had similar health systems, healthcare costs and vital statistics.

    The U.S.' and Canada's different health insurance decisions make up the world's largest health policy experiment. And the results?

    On coverage, all Canadians have insurance for hospital and physician services. There are no deductibles or co-pays. Most provinces also provide coverage for programs for home care, long-term care, pharmaceuticals and durable medical equipment, although there are co-pays.

    On the U.S. side, 46 million people have no insurance, millions are underinsured and healthcare bills bankrupt more than 1 million Americans every year.

    Lesson No. 1: A single-payer system would eliminate most U.S. coverage problems.

    On costs, Canada spends 10% of its economy on healthcare; the U.S. spends 16%. The extra 6% of GDP amounts to more than $800 billion per year. The spending gap between the two nations is almost entirely because of higher overhead. Canadians don't need thousands of actuaries to set premiums or thousands of lawyers to deny care. Even the U.S. Medicare program has 80% to 90% lower administrative costs than private Medicare Advantage policies. And providers and suppliers can't charge as much when they have to deal with a single payer.

    Lessons No. 2 and 3: Single-payer systems reduce duplicative administrative costs and can negotiate lower prices.

    Because most of the difference in spending is for non-patient care, Canadians actually get more of most services. We see the doctor more often and take more drugs. We even have more lung transplant surgery. We do get less heart surgery, but not so much less that we are any more likely to die of heart attacks. And we now live nearly three years longer, and our infant mortality is 20% lower.

    Lesson No. 4: Single-payer plans can deliver the goods because their funding goes to services, not overhead.

    The Canadian system does have its problems, and these also provide important lessons. Notwithstanding a few well-publicized and misleading cases, Canadians needing urgent care get immediate treatment. But we do wait too long for much elective care, including appointments with family doctors and specialists and selected surgical procedures. We also do a poor job managing chronic disease.

    However, according to the New York-based Commonwealth Fund, both the American and the Canadian systems fare badly in these areas. In fact, an April U.S. Government Accountability Office report noted that U.S. emergency room wait times have increased, and patients who should be seen immediately are now waiting an average of 28 minutes. The GAO has also raised concerns about two- to four-month waiting times for mammograms.

    On closer examination, most of these problems have little to do with public insurance or even overall resources. Despite the delays, the GAO said there is enough mammogram capacity.

    These problems are largely caused by our shared politico-cultural barriers to quality of care. In 19th century North America, doctors waged a campaign against quacks and snake-oil salesmen and attained a legislative monopoly on medical practice. In return, they promised to set and enforce standards of practice. By and large, it didn't happen. And perverse incentives like fee-for-service make things even worse.

    Using techniques like those championed by the Boston-based Institute for Healthcare Improvement, providers can eliminate most delays. In Hamilton, Ontario, 17 psychiatrists have linked up with 100 family doctors and 80 social workers to offer some of the world's best access to mental health services. And in Toronto, simple process improvements mean you can now get your hip assessed in one week and get a new one, if you need it, within a month.

    Lesson No. 5: Canadian healthcare delivery problems have nothing to do with our single-payer system and can be fixed by re-engineering for quality.

    U.S. health policy would be miles ahead if policymakers could learn these lessons. But they seem less interested in Canada's, or any other nation's, experience than ever. Why?

    American democracy runs on money. Pharmaceutical and insurance companies have the fuel. Analysts see hundreds of billions of premiums wasted on overhead that could fund care for the uninsured. But industry executives and shareholders see bonuses and dividends.

    Compounding the confusion is traditional American ignorance of what happens north of the border, which makes it easy to mislead people. Boilerplate anti-government rhetoric does the same. The U.S. media, legislators and even presidents have claimed that our "socialized" system doesn't let us choose our own doctors. In fact, Canadians have free choice of physicians. It's Americans these days who are restricted to "in-plan" doctors.

    Unfortunately, many Americans won't get to hear the straight goods because vested interests are promoting a caricature of the Canadian experience.

    ---------

    Michael M. Rachlis is a physician, health policy analyst and author in Toronto.
    »
    Nice to see someone else post here and refute some of the ignorance out there. Thanks for the informative article Atypical.

  4. candleman is offline
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    Joined: Jul 2009 Location: Outer Banks of North Carolina Posts: 1,511
    09-14-2009, 01:58 PM #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Atypical View Post
    Monday 03 August 2009

    by: Michael M. Rachlis | The Los Angeles Times


    Canadian hospitals, which operate under a universal health program, offer the same opportunities for surgery as American hospitals - despite the fact that no candidates for surgery are denied for financial reasons. (Photo: Artur Bergman / flickr)

    The caricature of "socialized medicine" is used by corporate interests to confuse Americans and maintain their bottom lines instead of patients' health.

    Universal health insurance is on the American policy agenda for the fifth time since World War II. In the 1960s, the U.S. chose public coverage for only the elderly and the very poor, while Canada opted for a universal program for hospitals and physicians' services. As a policy analyst, I know there are lessons to be learned from studying the effect of different approaches in similar jurisdictions. But, as a Canadian with lots of American friends and relatives, I am saddened that Americans seem incapable of learning them.

    Our countries are joined at the hip. We peacefully share a continent, a British heritage of representative government and now ownership of GM. And, until 50 years ago, we had similar health systems, healthcare costs and vital statistics.

    The U.S.' and Canada's different health insurance decisions make up the world's largest health policy experiment. And the results?

    On coverage, all Canadians have insurance for hospital and physician services. There are no deductibles or co-pays. Most provinces also provide coverage for programs for home care, long-term care, pharmaceuticals and durable medical equipment, although there are co-pays.

    On the U.S. side, 46 million people have no insurance, millions are underinsured and healthcare bills bankrupt more than 1 million Americans every year.

    Lesson No. 1: A single-payer system would eliminate most U.S. coverage problems.

    On costs, Canada spends 10% of its economy on healthcare; the U.S. spends 16%. The extra 6% of GDP amounts to more than $800 billion per year. The spending gap between the two nations is almost entirely because of higher overhead. Canadians don't need thousands of actuaries to set premiums or thousands of lawyers to deny care. Even the U.S. Medicare program has 80% to 90% lower administrative costs than private Medicare Advantage policies. And providers and suppliers can't charge as much when they have to deal with a single payer.

    Lessons No. 2 and 3: Single-payer systems reduce duplicative administrative costs and can negotiate lower prices.

    Because most of the difference in spending is for non-patient care, Canadians actually get more of most services. We see the doctor more often and take more drugs. We even have more lung transplant surgery. We do get less heart surgery, but not so much less that we are any more likely to die of heart attacks. And we now live nearly three years longer, and our infant mortality is 20% lower.

    Lesson No. 4: Single-payer plans can deliver the goods because their funding goes to services, not overhead.

    The Canadian system does have its problems, and these also provide important lessons. Notwithstanding a few well-publicized and misleading cases, Canadians needing urgent care get immediate treatment. But we do wait too long for much elective care, including appointments with family doctors and specialists and selected surgical procedures. We also do a poor job managing chronic disease.

    However, according to the New York-based Commonwealth Fund, both the American and the Canadian systems fare badly in these areas. In fact, an April U.S. Government Accountability Office report noted that U.S. emergency room wait times have increased, and patients who should be seen immediately are now waiting an average of 28 minutes. The GAO has also raised concerns about two- to four-month waiting times for mammograms.

    On closer examination, most of these problems have little to do with public insurance or even overall resources. Despite the delays, the GAO said there is enough mammogram capacity.

    These problems are largely caused by our shared politico-cultural barriers to quality of care. In 19th century North America, doctors waged a campaign against quacks and snake-oil salesmen and attained a legislative monopoly on medical practice. In return, they promised to set and enforce standards of practice. By and large, it didn't happen. And perverse incentives like fee-for-service make things even worse.

    Using techniques like those championed by the Boston-based Institute for Healthcare Improvement, providers can eliminate most delays. In Hamilton, Ontario, 17 psychiatrists have linked up with 100 family doctors and 80 social workers to offer some of the world's best access to mental health services. And in Toronto, simple process improvements mean you can now get your hip assessed in one week and get a new one, if you need it, within a month.

    Lesson No. 5: Canadian healthcare delivery problems have nothing to do with our single-payer system and can be fixed by re-engineering for quality.

    U.S. health policy would be miles ahead if policymakers could learn these lessons. But they seem less interested in Canada's, or any other nation's, experience than ever. Why?

    American democracy runs on money. Pharmaceutical and insurance companies have the fuel. Analysts see hundreds of billions of premiums wasted on overhead that could fund care for the uninsured. But industry executives and shareholders see bonuses and dividends.

    Compounding the confusion is traditional American ignorance of what happens north of the border, which makes it easy to mislead people. Boilerplate anti-government rhetoric does the same. The U.S. media, legislators and even presidents have claimed that our "socialized" system doesn't let us choose our own doctors. In fact, Canadians have free choice of physicians. It's Americans these days who are restricted to "in-plan" doctors.

    Unfortunately, many Americans won't get to hear the straight goods because vested interests are promoting a caricature of the Canadian experience.

    ---------

    Michael M. Rachlis is a physician, health policy analyst and author in Toronto.
    »
    Thanks for this one!

    I have many business friends in Canada and in Europe. None of them, I mean not one of them has anything bad to say about the systems they live under. They all feel really pissed that the American press has painted them in bad terms though.

    We certainly don't have to copy anybody. But we DO need change.

  5. Atypical is offline
    09-14-2009, 02:31 PM #25

    Healthcare Industry "better than government" BS.

    Thursday 25 June 2009

    by: Fawn Johnson | The Wall Street Journal


    Large health insurers across the country have been using a faulty database which resulted in millions of valid insurance claims being underpaid. (Photo: iStockphoto)
    Congressional investigators have discovered that large health insurers in every region of the country are relying on faulty databases to underpay millions of valid insurance claims.

    In a report released Wednesday, the Senate Commerce Committee said insurance companies nationwide have failed to provide consumers with accurate or understandable information about how they calculate "reasonable" or "customary" charges for out-of-network care.

    Insurers also signed contracts prohibiting them from disclosing information about the databases to consumers or doctors, the report said.

    The flawed databases are owned by Ingenix Inc., a subsidiary of UnitedHealth Group Inc. UnitedHealth recently settled with the New York attorney general's office to resolve charges that Ingenix drew up billing rates that underpaid hospitals and doctors for out-of-network care.

    Patients had to make up the difference. It is unclear how much they have overpaid over the years.

    An Ingenix spokeswoman said the company stands by the integrity of its databases. The two databases in question by the committee represent less than 2% of Ingenix's overall business. Ingenix also said it doesn't set actual rates for health procedures.

    Other insurers that purchased Ingenix data in New York - Aetna Inc., CIGNA Corp., and Wellpoint Inc. among them - also paid into the settlement. Under that agreement, the insurers will help pay for and then use a new not-for-profit research entity that will help determine prices for out-of-network care.

    Commerce Committee Chairman John Rockefeller, D-W.Va., launched the committee investigation in March, in the wake of the UnitedHealth settlement.

    Committee oversight staffers sought data from 18 large insurers that didn't participate in the New York settlement, including American International Group Inc., Humana Group Inc., the Kaiser Foundation Group, several Blue Cross Blue Shield units, and UnumProvident Corp.

    Together with the New York investigation, the committee's findings represent roughly two-thirds of the health-insurance market.

    The Ingenix databases represent "the great black box of the health-care industry," according to one health-care CEO quoted in the report. Ingenix also is the only commercial source of such data.

    Providers and patients have suspected for years that insurers were underpaying for out-of-network care, but they haven't been able to prove it.

    Committee investigators found that Ingenix developed its payment models based on claims data provided by its customers, the insurance companies.

    A committee aide said those companies sometimes would "scrub" the data sent to Ingenix - throwing out outlying high costs. Ingenix then would use questionable statistical models to come to its own rate estimates.

    The committee's report comes at a critical moment in Congress, as lawmakers are struggling to craft a massive overhaul to the health-care system designed to cover some 45 million uninsured Americans.

    In addition to chairing the Commerce Committee, Sen. Rockefeller also chairs the health subcommittee of the Finance Committee, one of two key Senate panels negotiating the health-care bill.

    He hopes to insert into the health-care bill language creating some type of independent evaluator that can certify that health claims are evaluated properly.

    In the meantime, Commerce Committee investigators likely will continue to drill down into individual companies' practices to understand how they arrive at certain claims rates. The committee also could look into smaller regional insurance carriers to see if they, too, are using faulty data.

    Republicans and other champions of private-sector insurers have long argued that making health care more consumer-friendly would drive down costs because patients could "shop around" for the best care.

    But Sen. Rockefeller and other health-policy experts argue that the lack of information in the private health-insurance market has made competition and informed consumer choice almost impossible

  6. Atypical is offline
    09-14-2009, 02:40 PM #26

    Healthcare Costs

    A major reason why a sensible health system has been throttled for decades: insurance companies, which thrive best when they deny care; insurance companies, which line the pockets of the people's legislators.

    Here are some numbers to bear in mind, and inscribe on signs, and pass out on flyers, and send to your friends, doctors, uncertains, Blue Dogs, Black Cats, whatever, during this fall's home stretch:

    Total expenditure by private insurance companies, 2007: $331 billion
    Total expenditure on administrative costs + profits, 2007: $95 billion

    Percentage of total expenditure spent on administrative costs + profits = 29%

    By contrast, here are 2007 figures for Social Security and Medicare administrative costs:

    Social Security = 0.9%

    Medicare = 3%*

    The people who run these companies may not be "bad people," but their institutional interest is not the public's interest. Not. The. Public's. Interest.

    * The Right disputes the Medicare figure. But nobody, nobody, claims that Medicare's true administrative costs are anything like 29%.

    -------



    Todd Gitlin
    Professor of Journalism and Sociology
    and Chair, Ph. D. Program in Communications
    Columbia University

  7. Atypical is offline
    09-14-2009, 02:43 PM #27

    Joe Scarborough's Take

    Joe Scarborough Is Shocked (Yet Awed) by Sheer Force of Single-Payer Logic

    By Leslie Savan, TheNation.com
    Posted on August 20, 2009, Printed on August 22, 2009
    http://www.alternet.org/bloggers/htt...on.com/142110/

    Something rather remarkable happened on Tuesday's Morning Joe. Rep. Anthony Weiner of New York pointed out that the health insurance industry has no clothes, and Joe Scarborough, after first trying to spin it some gossamer threads, broke down and said, By God, you're right, this emperor is a naked money-making machine!

    Well, he didn't use those exact words, but Joe did seem to finally get that America has granted insurance companies the right to create bottlenecks in the financing of health care in order to extract profits out of the suffering of ordinary people -- without providing any actual health care whatsoever.

    "Why are we paying profits for insurance companies?" Weiner asked Scarborough. "Why are we paying overhead for insurance companies? Why," he asked, bringing it all home, "are we paying for their TV commercials?"

    Weiner, who recently warned that President Obama could lose as many as 100 votes on a health bill if a public option is not included, really wants single payer -- Medicare for all Americans is his goal. What a crazy, way-out, reckless notion, Joe went into their encounter believing. But Weiner asked some simple, direct questions that no politician, much less Obama or HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius, has managed to pose:

    What is an insurance company? They don't do a single check-up. They don't do a single exam, they don't perform an operation. Medicare has a 4 percent overhead rate. The real question is why do we have a private plan?

    "It sounds like you're saying you think there is no need for us to have private insurance in health care," Joe asked at one point.

    Weiner replied: "I've asked you three times. What is their value? What are they bringing to the deal?"

    Scraping the bottom of a seemingly bottomless pit of spin, Joe is repeatedly left speechless, "stunned" and "astounded," he said, by the questions themselves. Indeed, when confronted with unfettered capitalism's massive failures, the right usually has nothing to say. The "free market" is supposed to eternally grow, not crash under its own greed. They're left ideologically crippled.

    But unlike, say, Lou Dobbs, who began dobbering when confronted with similarly direct argument for single-payer, Joe was able to take a deep breath and return from a break with his eyes opened.

    He even repeated Weiner's points clearly: The government would take over only the "paying mechanism" of health care, not the doctors or their medical decisions themselves. His ears perked up every time Weiner mentioned that the nonprofit Medicare spends 4 percent on overhead, while private insurers spend 30 percent.

    And Joe, who has been criticizing mob rule at town halls, seemed to appreciate the way Weiner counters the fearmongering over Medicare: After decades of railing against the program's wasteful, "runaway" spending, Republicans have done a 180 and are now trying to scare seniors that the Democrats' proposed Medicare cuts will come directly from their medical care and not, as is actually proposed, from wasteful, stupid practices in the system--like, as Weiner mentions, putting people into a $700-a-night hospital bed when all they really need, and often prefer, is a visit by a homecare attendant in the two-digit-a-day range.

    Maybe the real turning point came when Weiner asked, "How does Wal-mart offer $4 prescriptions?" Joe and co-host Mika Brzezinski looked as if they'd been thwacked by a hardback copy of Atlas Shrugged, and sat back to let the congressman explain it all to them:


    They go to the pharmaceutical companies and say, "Listen, we have a giant buying pool here. You're going to give us a great deal."

    Who's bigger than Wal-Mart? We are, the taxpayers. Do we do that? No. Because we have outsourced this to insurance companies who don't have necessarily as much incentive to keep those costs down because, frankly, they are getting a piece of the action.

    Progressives tend to understand this stuff, but many conservatives won't trust such logic, especially in the abstract, which is how most Dems have been communicating. But Weiner, aware that if you can't visualize something it ain't going to stick, argued with a specific, familiar visual -- that of a successful, supercapitalist, and, as Mika might say, "real American" company. And suddenly, as the mote dropped from the MJ crew's eyes, Weiner went from "scaring American citizens," in Joe's words, to instant celeb.

    "That was SO great!" said Mika, as she and Joe asked Anthony to please, please come back soon, this week if possible!

    "You have succeeded in doing something that no one else has done on this show in two years," said Joe, his fists rapidly knocking the table in excitement. "You made me speechless. And you made me speechless because you so clearly came here and stated your position."

    While maintaining that he and Weiner have "different worldviews," Joe nevertheless raved, "This is fascinating, and one of the problems with the president's message is that it's muddled." And, damn, that's true.

    Could this episode herald a Single-Payer Awakening? Or is this just the thrill of logic running up Joe's leg, soon to be forgotten as corporate media try to undermine real reform of a system that feeds the nets millions in ad revenue? When the big mainstream players shouted in unison to prematurely declare the public option dead, I couldn't help but think: In the corporate media's total takeover of ideas, they, too, have a death panel -- made up of three or four conglomerate owners and chaired by Rupert Murdoch -- that will determine whether an idea lives or gets its plug pulled.

    On Thursday, Morning Joe replayed Weiner's best hits, but Joe was occasionally dobbering himself, complaining that our health care problems come down to costs, costs, costs but "now all the President is talking about is a moral imperative." (Of course, Obama put morality on the table only yesterday; until then, he focused on costs, costs, costs.)

    We'll see how far this relative openness to single-payer goes. In the meantime, though, the education of Joe Scarborough is, as always, a sight to behold:

  8. Atypical is offline
    09-14-2009, 02:45 PM #28

    Bush Tax Cuts

    New Report from Citizens for Tax Justice
    The Bush Tax Cuts Cost Two and a Half Times as Much as the House Democrats' Health Care Plan


    Newly revised estimates from Citizens for Tax Justice show that the Bush tax cuts cost almost $2.5 trillion over the decade after they were first enacted (2001-2010). Preliminary estimates from the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office show that the House Democrats' health care reform legislation is projected to cost $1 trillion over the decade after it would be enacted (2010-2019).

    And yet, many of the lawmakers who argue that the health care reform legislation is "too costly" are the same lawmakers who supported the Bush tax cuts. Their own voting record demonstrates that health care reform is not a matter of costs, but a matter of priorities.

    Read the new report from Citizens for Tax Justice.

    These figures make clear that costs cannot be the real concern of lawmakers who oppose the House health care legislation and yet supported the Bush tax cuts. Their position seems to be that showering benefits on the wealthiest five percent of taxpayers and leaving the bill for future generations is preferable to making health care available for all at a much lower cost and paying that cost up front. That demonstrates a different set of priorities than most Americans have, but it doesn't demonstrate much concern about costs

  9. Atypical is offline
    09-14-2009, 02:54 PM #29

    The REAL Story

    seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/7532.

  10. lloyd Handwerker is offline
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    Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 524
    09-14-2009, 02:58 PM #30
    Thanks again for all that information Atypical. I wish you would put some of those articles up as new threads so they dont get lost in the pile of comments in this one. They are too important to ignore.