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  1. TSavery is offline
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    05-10-2009, 07:54 AM #221
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyIrishXM View Post
    Sorry Tyler,i'm nosy and have to ask since both brought it up.
    are we talking thousands here or Hundreds?
    Because if this is over some $300 payment not made,then it is childish and crazy to even talk about.
    But if it is $thousands then can understand a little i guess...
    But it is funny that he cited Censorship as reason for leaving and he just crossed the line in my book with deleting a perfectly reasoned post on a ligititment subject matter...

    And if you ever go out on that limb with no info i'll call you on it too.
    Or as john would say "off the reservation"...
    Great article BTW,explained alot i didn't know about how subs are counted.
    Promo's anyway..
    We are talking about hundreds and nowwhere near a thousand.

    The "censorship" item made its away around the net and was used as a recruiting tool. Brandon was never censored. The only thing that would come close is that we removed his abilty to post when the whole slander ( with Michael Hartlieb) issue arose, and we were in the midst of ensuring that we would not get sued.

    The ability for him to post was removed, becuse even though he was made aware that MH was talking about suing, he was continiung to egg on MH in the forums by telling him to "bring it on", etc. The decision was made to cut him off until the issue was calmed down. If that is censoring, the so be it. It was more of keeping the situation from getting worse than it already was.

    The censoring, and a lie that I support Hartlieb and am in cahoots with Hartlieb were used in a behind the scenes campaign to recruit readers away from this site. I think the record has been set straight because it was brought out to the forefront.
    Last edited by TSavery; 05-10-2009 at 11:05 AM.
    Tyler Savery
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  2. TSavery is offline
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    05-10-2009, 08:15 AM #222
    Quote Originally Posted by TSavery View Post
    The epic thread that will not die.

    While I hate to continue this, there is yet another issue to give clarity to. Hopefully this will be the last.



    Brandon Matthews stated, "Post deleted. I could not care less what Tyler has to say. Those pieces of crap owe me money and have done nothing but attempt to discredit me since I left. They are spiteful losers. Answering them is akin to answering a yahoo poster in my opinion.

    I don't see the thieving bastard writing about Motley Fool articles. He's desperate to draw attention to his site. I would no sooner answer them than the motley fool. Both are just as useless in my opinion."


    Let's deal with these one at a time:

    1. "I could not care less what Tyler has to say." - Quite fine. Personally, I view the opinions of many writers and people as it helps me see the range of opinion that is out there.

    2. "Those pieces of crap owe me money" - Sirius Buzz does owe Brandon money. In fact, Sirius Buzz also owes me money. You see, we have advertisers that are NET 60. This means it takes 60 days to settle out the account, and for SB to get paid. Until we know what the final tally is for the month, we can not pay anyone. Further, we have to first pay out other commitments before we know what is left to divide into shares. One of those payments was to our former moderator who went to satwaves. After a few conversations and emails asking that person what they felt they were owed (I did not want to have a debate about the amount), I got the answer from that person today, May 9th. With this in hand, we are expediting payment to the former moderator ASAP because his monies would come off of the top anyway. Brandon will get paid for his last month at the EXACT SAME TIME I get paid. The NET 60 was explained to him several times, but apparently he does not believe it. I would gladly show my PAYPAL account to an independent party. To be clear, the former moderator handled the money situation in a first class manner. He knew he would get his payment, and was never worried about it at all. I think, if allowed, he would be the first to tell you this.

    3. "have done nothing but attempt to discredit me since I left." - I had conversations with two individuals who participated at SiriusBuzz which were torn on which way to go. I outlined the concerns I had (much of which these parties also had the same concerns), and gave some advice as to the risks/rewards of partnering into a site. I did not state that I wanted to bring down the site, nor that I would contact anyone to open any investigations. I did state that it is something that a partner in a site needs to be aware of, and that if you partner with someone who has made enemies (not with me mind you) with others who watch actions like a hawk, that it could brew trouble. I made it perfectly clear that I was not initiating anything at all. These individuals wanted to own a piece of something. I can't say I blame them for their decisions. I may not agree with their decisions, but who am I to hold someone back? Ownership was something Charles and I were not going to give up, especially considering what happened. I respect their decisions.

    If discrediting means correcting the record on whether or not Liberty owned their shares, then call me someone who discredits. The Liberty shares represent a 40% stake in the company. That is a huge deal. Having readers think those shares can come back to Sirius was a huge mistake. Sorry for be blunt here, but that is what it is. If pointing out that there was no way that the company will have positive subscribers is discrediting him, then so be it. Most everyone knew that the subs would be negative. There were some that thought I was crazy projecting a drop of 484,000. I was not trying to discredit with this. It is no secret that Brandon was here, and I encourage people to read his site and his opinion. It does not take a satellite engineer ( pun intended) to figure out that SB readers would also be reading his site. Those readers would ask me, "is that accurate?", "can we reverse the liberty deal?", "do you think we really can have positive subs?". I got enough of these responses, that clarification was needed.

    4. "They are spiteful losers." - Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

    5. "Answering them is akin to answering a yahoo poster in my opinion." - My Yahoo handle is Doberman007. You will see that my posting on Yahoo is a rare event. I have posted there in the past, but made it a point to never link back to my site or even speak of it. If asked, I would state fully that I have the site. I will not give out Brandon's Yahoo ID here, if someone cares enough, they can track it down. Needless to say, he answers poster on Yahoo (only stating the fact, and not judging).

    6. "I don't see the thieving bastard writing about Motley Fool articles." - Research is an important thing. I have countered Motley Fool articles in the past. You can search right on this site or at www.satellitestandard.blogspot.com and verify that for yourselves. I am not trying to discredit here....simply stating the fact.

    7. "He's desperate to draw attention to his site." - Traffic is the same as it has been. If I was desperate to draw attention to my site, I would be on the yahoo message boards posting links to my articles. I don't do that.

    8. "I would no sooner answer them than the motley fool." - So I am supposed to write rebuttals to Motley Fool, but he is not. Sorry, but having an opinion on both sides of the fence is the same as not having an opinion.

    9. "Both (SiriusBuzz and Motley Fool) are just as useless in my opinion." - You have a right to your opinion. I will let the articles of this site speak for themselves, and stack them against any other article from any other site any time.

    So, with that explanation, I hope the clarity is out there, and this issue and this "EPIC Thread" can be put to rest.
    The post in question has now been removed from the satwaves site, as well as Johnny Irishes question which centered on deactivations in Q1, by Rick.

    "Let's get one point perfectly straight. We have been crucified for posting our views on SB - and we have attempted to be civil. This is not SB and will not become a yazoo. All opinions are welcome but neither Brandon or I have time to deal with attempts to start another war of words. The BS needs to die - and that needs to be the end of it. You are all welcome here. If they want to keep spinning in circles and anger they can do it on the other forum. I for one am done.

    That said - if we are not able to post there without flame wars - we will not tolerate someone using this board to draw us back into the drama we left behind. I personally avoid SB as a courtesy. I would expect the same of Chuck and Tyler. Obviously they want to stir up drama like children throwing a tantrum.

    If you have a question to ask - ask it - but insinuations of any kind that I feel are a personal attack or attempt to draw someone out for such reasons will not be tolerated. I will ban any member - regardless of seniority - if I feel it is necessary to protect this group. In other words - post at will but keep it on topic without the extra he saids/she saids...etc.... WE all need to just let it go and get past the last few weeks distractions.

    Our users expect to have a peaceful place to coexist and debate like adults - and that is the way it will remain. Anyone who does not feel the posted forum rules are fair can PM me to discuss them or leave. I like simplicity.

    Johnny - specifically for you - tyler can leave comments attached to the articles on the blog site just like anyone else. So coming here accomplished nothing but stirring up anger. That is something I will not accept."


    Rick

    Let me say that I appreciate that Rick made the decision to remove the post. That being said, I think that Johnny Irishes question about deactivated subs deserved an anwer....although I never got to see his post and how it was worded because it was removed just after it was put up from my understanding.

    I do not crucify anyone for posting on SB. My issue was the use of the SiriusBuzz private message system for purposes counter to the interests of SiriusBuzz. There were enough messages sent to people, 1 per minute, to set off the spam filters of this site.

    Whether we or satwaves likes it or not, there will always be comparisons drawn between the two sites. Such is life. What I wrote about subs is not a flame war, it was clarifying an issue that obviously had many people confused. Readers here want good information that they can rely on, and that is what we try to provide. I do not want, need or desire to stir up drama.

    Rick stated that he avoids SB as a courtesy. I think that strategy is wise. It is why I also do not leave comments on articles there, participate in the forums there, or participate in any radio show they may do. I employ the same rule for myself with Orbitcast, or any other site.

    Cheers all, and a thanks to Rick for pulling the thread.
    Last edited by TSavery; 05-10-2009 at 11:06 AM.
    Tyler Savery
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  3. JohnnyIrishXM is offline
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    05-10-2009, 09:06 AM #223
    Copy of my post to BM over at Satwaves that was deleted.this was my reply to imcrawl:

    Brandon,that was a ligitiment post and question,why did you delete it and make a comment about them and all the drivel.You said you left for Censorship reasons,but that is not the point,couldn't care less about you 3 arguments.Is Satwave's only for positive post's when it agrees with your assesment of the situation?
    Tyler brought up a contradictory Article to your Parking lot Sub's being reason for 300k loss,is it true or false,simple answer please,we would all like the answer if it is not ,to help us understand the filing by siriusXM


    P.S.not part of post,but i had not posted there at all last night until IMCRAWL's post and paste of Tyler's article .and asking question to BM if he had a comment on it,only after BM deleted it did i post above post..
    Last edited by JohnnyIrishXM; 05-10-2009 at 03:39 PM.

  4. TSavery is offline
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    05-10-2009, 11:03 AM #224
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyIrishXM View Post
    this was my reply to imcrawl:

    Brandon,that was a ligitiment post and question,why did you delete it and make a comment about them and all the drivel.You said you left for Censorship reasons,but that is not the point,couldn't care less about you 3 arguments.Is Satwave's only for positive post's when it agrees with your assesment of the situation?
    Tyler brought up a contradictory Article to your Parking lot Sub's being reason for 300k loss,is it true or false,simple answer please,we would all like the answer if it is not ,to help us understand the filing by siriusXM
    Johnny....

    All of that aside, I want to know if your question was answered, or what it was. You deserve the clarity you are seeking.

    I think what I wrote on the issue of subscribers should have mede everything very clear, but perhaps not. If there is still a question, I would be happy to respond to it.
    Tyler Savery
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  5. TSavery is offline
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    05-10-2009, 12:11 PM #225
    Johnny Irish.....

    I am writing this in this thread, but also posting this in the subscriber thread, as this is where the information needs to be so that people understand these metrics better.

    There are very specific reasons why "parking lot subscribers" are a subset of "promotional subscribers" and should not be simply lumped in. Lumping all of these subscribers into one category is naive, and leads to misses when trying to project the performance of the company....not just in sub numbers, but the bottom line as well.

    A pure promotional subscriber has a consumer attached. The importance of this is that the contracted service of the promotion is being fulfilled, and thus the dollars attached go into the REVENUE line item.

    A parking lot subscriber (one that is not yet in the hands of the end user) has had the subscription paid for, but the contracted service is not yet being delivered. In the period of time before the parking lot subscriber becomes a true promotional subscriber, the payments received go into DEFERRED REVENUE. Deferred revenue is a LIABILITY.

    That alone makes a substantial difference, and to ignore that is a mistake.

    Now consider the impact on ARPU. A pure promotional subscriber is adding revenue to the picture. A Parking lot subscriber is not adding revenue. Parking lot subscribers contribute $0 to the ARPU metric, and therefor drag that metric down.

    These reasons make it quite clear why lumping all promotional subscribers into one category is a HUGE error. I write this because if readers here really want to break down the numbers, they will have the ability to do so. I write this because there are more metrics at play than simply the subscriber number, and knowing that lets readers arrive at more realistic opinions that are grounded in the facts of how everything is panned out and considered.
    Tyler Savery
    Satellite Standard Founder

  6. JohnnyIrishXM is offline
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    05-10-2009, 12:30 PM #226
    I understand the deferred rev part and ARPU affect,but i guess the question is if the deffered rev is really lost rev for months on the lot and never recoverable,hence i saw a 1.1 billion figure in the liability part of financials,assuming that is many years of lost rev for each radio in pentration that was lost on lot?
    If so it kinda skews the FCF and profit bottom line forever...Also why we could never have 100% penetration,it would be stupid and costly..

  7. TSavery is offline
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    05-10-2009, 01:02 PM #227
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyIrishXM View Post
    I understand the deferred rev part and ARPU affect,but i guess the question is if the deffered rev is really lost rev for months on the lot and never recoverable,hence i saw a 1.1 billion figure in the liability part of financials,assuming that is many years of lost rev for each radio in pentration that was lost on lot?
    If so it kinda skews the FCF and profit bottom line forever...Also why we could never have 100% penetration,it would be stupid and costly..
    Once the car is sold to the end user, the value of a one month subscription shifts from deferred revenue to revenue each month until the contract is up.

    When you prepay for a one year sub, your payment sits in deferred revenue as well, and each month the value of 1 months subscription is shifted from deferred rebenue to revenue
    Last edited by TSavery; 05-10-2009 at 01:10 PM.
    Tyler Savery
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  8. otone is offline
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    05-10-2009, 03:01 PM #228
    Johnny, looks like even though some offence was taken to your post, BM still chose to answer your question:

    "Just for the record, I don't care if a car is sitting on a lot or a customer who has yet to agree to subscribe has taken possession of a car...It's still a promotional sub. I consider all of these parking lot subs.

    No clarification is required. Sirius has approx. 16 million self paid subs. They have approx 3 million in promotional periods, paid for by vehicle manufacturers, not individuals....parking lot subs...those are the facts."


    All other evidence of this discussion now gone. Not even sure you can call that censorship. Sites that act in a professional way, will sometimes delete/edit some posts, but leave an explanation as to why it is done. Not totally erase the history like it never happened. Then they don't turn around and make a comment to a post that had been deleted. I'm left here scratching my head. Paranoia will make you do some funny things.

    Tyler, a big thanks to you and the other folks here who try so hard to understand in detail all the information provided to us. Big help.

  9. JohnnyIrishXM is offline
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    05-10-2009, 03:30 PM #229
    Thanks Otone,a copy of my post over there is in this thread,i copied it and posted it here,they had a seperate thread with BM and my posy but not the original post by IMcrawl who is a member there who posted tyler's article and asked BM to explain it..I got pissed when BM deleted it and went on a pissing contest on SiriusBUZZ about all kinds of crazy stuff that didn't have a bearing on the ? asked.It was exactly what they are banning people for if they get out of line with their rules and then blame others for Hot headedness..

  10. TSavery is offline
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    05-10-2009, 03:36 PM #230
    Quote Originally Posted by otone View Post
    Johnny, looks like even though some offence was taken to your post, BM still chose to answer your question:

    "Just for the record, I don't care if a car is sitting on a lot or a customer who has yet to agree to subscribe has taken possession of a car...It's still a promotional sub. I consider all of these parking lot subs.

    No clarification is required. Sirius has approx. 16 million self paid subs. They have approx 3 million in promotional periods, paid for by vehicle manufacturers, not individuals....parking lot subs...those are the facts."


    All other evidence of this discussion now gone. Not even sure you can call that censorship. Sites that act in a professional way, will sometimes delete/edit some posts, but leave an explanation as to why it is done. Not totally erase the history like it never happened. Then they don't turn around and make a comment to a post that had been deleted. I'm left here scratching my head. Paranoia will make you do some funny things.

    Tyler, a big thanks to you and the other folks here who try so hard to understand in detail all the information provided to us. Big help.
    Otone....

    The term "parking lot subs" was coined by an analyst referring specifically to the Sirius deal with Ford and Chrysler. This term was NEVER applied to XM subs such as in the GM deal.

    To change the definition of a term that has been used in this industry by analysts and the like for over two years is a big mistake in my opinion and shows, in my blunt opinion, either arrogance or ignorance. Whichever it is, it is not good.

    The answer that was provided, and I assume that is the complete answer, misses the entire aspect of how these subs impact metrics beyond the subscriber count (ARPU, SAC, Revenue, Deferred revenue, etc). Why on earth would someone not want to know the distinct differences here?

    I would rather avoid a "flame war". Most that read his site, likely read here (unless they drank the "tyler supports hartlieb, censors, and is a theif kool aid), and by doing so, will get this important information.
    Tyler Savery
    Satellite Standard Founder

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