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  1. sl62 is offline
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    Joined: Jan 2009 Location: Windy C. Posts: 644
    03-22-2009, 11:19 PM #41
    Quote Originally Posted by relmor2003 View Post
    Sl62. The intent of the lent shares was so they could enter a short position, and NEVER have to worry about buying the stock back to cover. Thats fine. Enter your position, and go away. If its truely just a hedge against your bonds not being paid, then fine. If that was their true intention, which we know it is not. Since they are working with a free short, they are going to use those shares to MANIPULATE THE STOCK down, and keep it down as long as they can. This is the illegal part. Lending shares to hedge is one thing, but purposefully using those shares to affect how the stock trades on a day in and day out basis is not. So your wrong. It was illegal then, and its illegal now. What would you say to the naked short position already established way before the SiriusXM merger details were announced? The way the stock traded the second news of the merger details came out more and more, and with no news on the merger details, this stock NEVER held gains, and jump around like a bunny rabbit. All gains were erased, because the short was already active. It knew something before we did. That the merger details would be terrible and go down bad. It was not a artbitage play against the common, that is just ridiculous. If I heard that arguement again Ill throw something.

    No where do I read, you can use these shorts to create a short wall, to attack the stock price at your discretion, offering these lend shares as sales on the open market, and to rebuy these shares at a lower price, and repeat. Didnt read that line, sorry. No, this prospectus does not allow what we are seeing here, and its complete conjecture to assume it is these shorts doing it in the first place.
    Its also 100 percent irrelevant which shares are doing it, and whom. Its illegal any which way your go. Do I think a million complaints will matter? Probably not, but I dont KNOW THAT.
    Not argueing with you sl62, my tone is calm. Its all good.

    Rel...

    Same to you...have too much respect for you to be insulting. I'm just bringing something forward that's all. I understand your point. And as you know it's just as frustrating for me to see and be subjected to these trading issues. Let me explain a little further. What we see as a wall, is as you say, but from the hedge point of view, they will say they are just inserting an order at the time and place of their choosing...(as it says in the prospectus: >>The share borrowers may sell the additional borrowed shares in various transactions at any time and from time to time after the fixed-price offering in amounts to be determined by the share borrowers.<< Now,to me, that means "any time." If I were them and were challenged legally, I would wip out that clause right there and ask the litigants what part of "any time" don't you understand. And then add that they can short, cover and reshort endlessly with the same tranch of shares and you've (we've) got a real headwind on our hands. We've known this for some time now. Nothing new to us right? We've seen it in action from back in September. I remember you were one of the first to call it out in L2. So, look. If there is something to be done about it, I don't begrudge anyone's efforts. I just think just like Hartlieb trying to sue Mel and even taking his case to MSM TV (FoxBN) and failing miserably and looking stupid, I think trying to get anyone to agee that this manipulation is illegal is tough. Yes, it's manipulation, I agree whole heartedly. But I think it's legal according to the agreement SIRI entered into. As far as naked shorting, yes, I call that illegal. But even there, why are MM's able to naked short legally? To me, the SEC knows about this and sanctions it because it's one of their tools to create wealth destruction..which I am confident our gov sanctions. Tough situation I know. I won't speak anymore on this as I'm not out to prove anybody wrong or kill anybody's cause. I just wanted to bring this forward and anyone can do with it what they may. I respect what all of you on that tack are wanting to address...

  2. asm610 is offline
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    03-22-2009, 11:30 PM #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Paratrooper_Rick View Post
    Amen brother - I wasn't raised any different -

    Brandon's article gave me a little more motivation to stay on - although I'm still just as angered at the lack of response from the SEC as everyone else. Apathy solves NOTHING. I'm thinking about pulling out some tools and building a flashing neon sign you could see from the moon with a big arrow pointing the SEC to the evidence. Even then those idiots might F$#$ it up. Bottom line - doing nothing is not an acceptable idea in my book. I equate it to walking into a gun fight with an empty holster - why even trade or invest if we don't ever want it done fairly? I'm not going to walk down some alley stab myself and hand money to a crook - why the H*!! should we just idly stand by...

    Not me - not while I have a pulse.
    Neither will I ! I am attacking on all fronts! And I am writing Congressmen and Senators to press them for writing reforms to exchange rules and to SEC regulations. I'm sick and tired of the blind and the deaf running these exchanges and enforcement agencies! It's not just about SIRIUS anymore...it's become way too prevalent...you all saw what they did to Lehman....it can happen again at will...and as long as the blowhards in Washington and New York feel comfortable...they will sit back and do nothing...hell some of them are fully invested in these Hedge funds... The American people have these evil scheming SONS OF SATAN to thank for destroying our economy and driving up unemployment rates.......and don't have any delusions here....GS benefitted the most from all the chaos...don't think they weren't behind a good portion of it.

  3. relmor2003 is offline
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    03-22-2009, 11:38 PM #43
    Quote Originally Posted by sl62 View Post
    Rel...

    Same to you...have too much respect for you to be insulting. I'm just bringing something forward that's all. I understand your point. And as you know it's just as frustrating for me to see and be subjected to these trading issues. Let me explain a little further. What we see as a wall, is as you say, but from the hedge point of view, they will say they are just inserting an order at the time and place of their choosing...(as it says in the prospectus: >>The share borrowers may sell the additional borrowed shares in various transactions at any time and from time to time after the fixed-price offering in amounts to be determined by the share borrowers.<< Now,to me, that means "any time." If I were them and were challenged legally, I would wip out that clause right there and ask the litigants what part of "any time" don't you understand. And then add that they can short, cover and reshort endlessly with the same tranch of shares and you've (we've) got a real headwind on our hands. We've known this for some time now. Nothing new to us right? We've seen it in action from back in September. I remember you were one of the first to call it out in L2. So, look. If there is something to be done about it, I don't begrudge anyone's efforts. I just think just like Hartlieb trying to sue Mel and even taking his case to MSM TV (FoxBN) and failing miserably and looking stupid, I think trying to get anyone to agee that this manipulation is illegal is tough. Yes, it's manipulation, I agree whole heartedly. But I think it's legal according to the agreement SIRI entered into. As far as naked shorting, yes, I call that illegal. But even there, why are MM's able to naked short legally? To me, the SEC knows about this and sanctions it because it's one of their tools to create wealth destruction..which I am confident our gov sanctions. Tough situation I know. I won't speak anymore on this as I'm not out to prove anybody wrong or kill anybody's cause. I just wanted to bring this forward and anyone can do with it what they may. I respect what all of you on that tack are wanting to address...
    Well Sl62, I think weve covered it. I agree with everything you wrote. But....Just one more point...
    That "any time" was a condition on the stock and how it can be used. Outside of those conditions are rules and regulations the SEC "enforces" on how you can buy and sell stocks, and how you do so. If your intent is to use these shares to manipulate the stock price as determined by SEC regulations, these laws would supercede any conditions SiriusXM has allowed the wielders of these shares. Sure they can sell them when they feel it is beneficial, but to use sells to rebuy lower is manipulation. SiriusXM prospectus doesnt simply forgive this practicse, but ENABLES THEM TO USE THESE SHARES FOR SUCH PRATICISE, by default. So, basically selling someone a gun, and saying you can use it whenver you want, isnt the same as allowing that person to use the gun for murder and not be prosecuted.
    And remember, I agree with what your writing, I totally do.

  4. relmor2003 is offline
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    03-22-2009, 11:41 PM #44
    Quote Originally Posted by asm610 View Post
    Neither will I ! I am attacking on all fronts! And I am writing Congressmen and Senators to press them for writing reforms to exchange rules and to SEC regulations. I'm sick and tired of the blind and the deaf running these exchanges and enforcement agencies! It's not just about SIRIUS anymore...it's become way too prevalent...you all saw what they did to Lehman....it can happen again at will...and as long as the blowhards in Washington and New York feel comfortable...they will sit back and do nothing...hell some of them are fully invested in these Hedge funds... The American people have these evil scheming SONS OF SATAN to thank for destroying our economy and driving up unemployment rates.......and don't have any delusions here....GS benefitted the most from all the chaos...don't think they weren't behind a good portion of it.
    Advice on writing to congressman. Choose smaller states, they are usually less corrupt politicians. Also party indication is not a factor in effectiveness of this issue. Use a politician who is younger, and might not know any better as well. Profile him/her, and decide which might be most beneficial to your cause. Obviously the creator of the bill to reestablish the uptick rule would be a great place to start. Bloomberg is also a media source that might listen more than others. Use smaller news sources, that get exposure, but might not be tied to "big money interests".

  5. Doctor_G is offline
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    03-23-2009, 03:11 PM #45
    Calling for the head of the SEC would be one hell of a good place to start. Next, we could start fixing things at the voting booths. What if people actually checked their incumbent candidate's voting records via the US Congress website and the Senate's website? Scroll thru your elected officials roll call votes and then skim thru any ammendments they made to bills. I bet we all would be surprised if we did that prior to voting in a Nov election. I actually did this before the last election and was truly amazed. Maybe disapointed would be the correct way to put it. Next, we find candidates who understand the corruption in the stock market and actually want to do something about it.

    Not that there's anything wrong with what you are trying to do "Para". Leave no stone unturned is always a damn good policy. We should hit these criminals and do-nothing elected officials with all guns blazing.

  6. Demian is offline
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    03-23-2009, 06:25 PM #46
    "I believe that free market capitalism is the best path to prosperity......"

    You need regulation and enforcement to make and keep it free.....

    When the powerful and elite take unfair advantage, it's not a free market....

    Boston Tea Party..........

  7. Demian is offline
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    03-24-2009, 07:10 PM #47
    I wanted to add this screenshot form this article to this thread.....

    http://www.politicallore.com/economy...nipulation/700


  8. Demian is offline
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    03-24-2009, 07:23 PM #48
    Notice all of the 100 share blocks on the screenshot......

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