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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/03/bu...er=rss&emc=rss
IL is worse that CA! They may be the first state to default.
Just a painful observation. The three states in the worst shape are CA, IL, and NY. Maybe Havakasha can tell us what these 3 states have in common?
This is a problem that is affecting most communities and states now. Here in North Carolina, they didn't issue income tax refunds for several months. Imagine that! If I don't pay my taxes on time, I pay a penalty. But, it doesn't work the same way in reverse.....
The only answer is to cut spending. If people don't want to pay increased taxes, we have no choice but to cut fire and police services, curtail recreational opportunities for our children, cut senior citizen programs and do things like that.
It wouldn't matter who the President is now. These problems have been building for a long time. It seems like California is constantly in trouble.
My town Kitty Hawk, has cut mosquito spraying, and cut the number of hours that lifegaurds are on duty on the beach, along with freezing wages and other programs were just eliminated. I would rather pay a bit more in taxes and have those programs stay intact. But, I know I'm in the minority.
S&L is letting all his true colors show. FInally he is been smoked out of the closet it seems. One distortion after another.
He seems to have forgotten South Carolina, Mississipi, etc. etc.
He sees to have forgotten that if McCain and Palin were in charge right now
thinks would certainly be much worse.
He seems to forget who brought us the 2nd worst recession ever for the US.
Oh yeah i forgot he only wants to talk about the future. Doesnt seem to understand the need for studying history even if it has only occurred as little as 2 years ago.
As such he seems to forget that the problems in New York, California etc. didnt start yesterday.
They have been building for years (Bush/Cheney) under Republican administrations as well as
Democrat. The Governors of New York and California were both Republicans as I recall. Pataki
was in office for 12 years and then there is Schwarzenegger. How long has he been in office?
And of course he refuses to use his brain to understand any of the nuances of those particular economies. Just generalized claptrap.
You are soooo full of $hit. How long have the States of CA, IL and NY been blue? Try FOREVER. Go ahead and fall on "it's because of Bush / Cheney" rhetoric.Quote:
Originally Posted by Havakasha
As far as your rhetoric about things would be worse under McCain.... PURE SPECULATION. Anyone could argue without substance that things would have better.....................
Have a great day.
Candleman - as a businessman, you know there are only two things: revenues and expenses, but in the world of Havakasha, there are revenues, expenses and government lol. That's how we are where we are today!! Bad model.Quote:
Originally Posted by candleman
Yeap, here in Ann Arbor, MI, I read yesterday that they are turning off street lights, eliminating fall leaf pickup and a couple firefighter were laid off. Leaf pickup is one direct service I truly appreciate with 13 mature trees dumping their biomass on my yard. With a 1000 square foot vegetable garden, I can mulch some, but there is simply too much. Now the city is telling me I have to bag them or put them into the compost cart (I can fill that in one minute lol). All this, and yet there are a bunch of new signs welcoming people to our city and letting them know where certainl things are (State Street area this way - no $hit Sherlock).
Sadly, you are correct; expenses must be curtailed. As I explained, or tried to explain, to Havakasha, Governments need to downsize and become more efficient squeezing more from each tax dollar than ever. It's a new world. I too though am afraid that this fiscal austerity will indeed cause our economy to further slow, but it is necessary as next up is ch9 for governments all across the nation, and that will be far worse than austerity.
I spend a lot of time thinking about how we got to this point. Where are we WASTING the money and where are we spending it wisely.
I think we all come up with different answers to that question.
For me, I see it this way and I know others can't agree. But, I think a good long converstation about these things is the only way to ever actually solve the problem.
I see huge waste in too many government employees not working as hard as they would be expected to work if they were in the private sector. When I go into government offices, I don't see people working feverishly. I don't hear a lot of noise, nor do I see employees working at such a pace that they are bumping into each other. And yet when I go into a small private business, that's exactly what I see. I step into a bank and I see tellers that make 10 bucks an hour and they are really earning it. I go into a bakery or restaurant and I see the cooking staff sweating it out and getting paid 10 or 12 dollars an hour. When I go into the DMV or the water department, I see folks sitting around and earning 35 to 45 thousand a year with good benefits. I think we need to expect more from the people that work for us.
That would be just a start, but we have to start someplace. I say we start by expecting government employees to put more effort into thier work. If they did, we may not need so many of them and in return we could cut budgets and not have to raise taxes.
Amen to that candleman! Our buddy Lloyd will be the dissenter, but I fully agree with your observation. Bottom line is that our government isn't really accountable to anyone. Your shop needs to post a profit. You need to keep your balance sheet clean or you may not get the money you need for expansion. You're accountable. I know such a statement is inflammatory, but our government is not accountable to us anyway. Maybe to their political party, but certainly not us. If they were, wouldn't the results today be much different? Social security might not be facing insolvency. Medicare might not be rife with fraud. Our national debt might be managable. There might have been no housing bubble (due to governmental agencies artificially allowing everyone home ownership).Quote:
Originally Posted by candleman
Did you see how I didn't mention democrat or republican? Enter Lloyd!
SL,
I'm curious about how things are playing out politically in Ann Arbor. I seem to remember it as a pretty independant place. Lots of bright people with many different opinions.
Does the TEA Party seem to have a foothold there?
I ask because I have a little concern about the throw the bums out ideaology of that group. We seem to have elected many new people to Congress over the last 12 years and yet it didn't seem to make any difference.
Here in North Carolina, in local elections, many respected people lost seats on County Commissions, Boards of Education and City Councils. In the end the only thing that changed is that we have a lot of people with ZERO experience and understanding of funding, making some really bad decisions.
I have no idea what the answers are SL. We all know the problems, I'd just like to find some solutions that will actually work.
The Ann Arbor city council is 100% represented by democrats, and is fairly well supported by the community. August 3 is the primary, and I'm pretty sure the status quo will stay. I personally haven't seen any Tea Party events around here. It would likely end up in a shouting match as liberals would amass and heckle the $hit out of them, and show up in more numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by candleman
Yes, Ann Arbor is still described as 6 square miles surrounded by reality. I've been here 20 years now; so I'm kind of numb to it. Get the kids to school, go shopping, take the kids to practice, cut the grass................
The University is obviously a stabilizing factor for our community. We lost a Pfizer reseach center around two years ago. It was a blow, but things seem to have weathered well.
The problem as I see it is party politics. I'll be candid. I voted for Bush twice, and I wanted him out dearly. It was his alignment with the religous right that alienated me. But if you are republican, that comes with it. I did indeed welcome Obama, but since have soured on him (that shouldn't be new news lol). We need someone in that position that will indeed bring these two parties together for mutually workable solutions, but that may be impossible as if you take on the others ideas, your own party may turn on you.
I don't have the solution either, but do have ideas. Whatever our government has in mind, the overidding goal should be to make the most people happy. Why happy? Because it's better than being pissed off -- and a lot of people are. For example, if our government would say for households making less that $200,000, you get a 6 month income tax break -- do you think most Americans would be encouraged?? As far as I'm concerned, that's instant savings.
Party politics is a HUGE problem! It's gotten to the point that good hearted people just don't want to run anymore. The hatred that comes from each party is enough to turn the best and brightest completely off to running for office.
I've been elected as an independant 4 times to local office. I would never run again. At least not in this climate. Just 10 years ago, people would agree to disagree and then get on with it. Now, some people are so set in thier ways that they have lost the ability to compromise and come to conclusions that are good for the majority. That attitude is not good for America.
Democrats seem to want to give away the farm and not raise taxes to do it. Republicans seem to want to spend, spend, spend, on war and not raise taxes to do it. None of it makes any sense whatsoever.
OK, I think we agree that we sort of know what the problem is. It's obvious that niether one of us has the answer either! But, I sure like talking about it...LOL:rolleyes:
Chuck
I like S&L's new economic theory. Blue states bad, red states good. LOL
I seem to remember a Democrat in the White House who balanced the budget and gave us surpluses. That would be Mr. Clinton. I seem to remember a Republican in the White House (that would be Mr. Bush) and a Republican controlled Congress (6 years) who gave us record deficits. And that was not during a recession when economists agree that Govt needs to spend when the private sector has shut down.
S&L have you checked out Arizona budget problems lately? Republican controlled state i believe. Even has Mr. McCain as a Senator. Remember that guy who was going to hire Phil Gramm as his Treasury Security. Remember him? Know anything about him? Study hard before you spout. You didnt even know Republicans controlled the Congress for 6 years under Bush (where i am from thats kind of BASIC information. lol) Phil Gramm is the guy partly responsible for proposing and helping to pass legislation that gave us this deep deep recession we are in.
Projected budget gaps for 2011.
Arizona -- 35.3%
New York -- 15.5%
Illinois --36.1%
Maine -- 32.1%
etc.
Lots of different ways to look at States balance sheets. All we DO know is that States (plural) are hurting. So S&L i would resist the attempt to try simplistic economic theories on why one state is worse off than another. You know what i mean? :)
First, it was just an observation and a valid one at that. CA, NY and IL are "blue". I'm not saying blue is bad. I live in a blue state, and a blue city. If you read any of the dialog between Candleman and I, you would know this. But instead, you go on your partisian diatribe - republican = destroyer / democrat = creator. You exemplify exactly what is wrong with our political system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Havakasha
Again, the reason for this recession is not Phil Gramm. The reason we are in this recession is that our government artificially pumped up real estate. You can rail on Wall Street all you want. They didn't encourage bad loans; they were enabled to make them by our government. Since you don't read my links, here's something to think about.
"The Federal National Mortgage Association, colloquially known as Fannie Mae, was established in 1938 after the Great Depression to create a liquid secondary mortgage market and thereby free the loan originators to originate more loans, primarily by buying Federal Housing Administration (FHA) insured mortgages"
So the banks did what the government allowed them to do. Surprisingly, or maybe not, the new financial reform bill seems to forget about Fannie Mae. By the way, this new financial reform bill will create much more government that you and I have to pay for, and further reducing the effectiveness of each tax dollar collected. It should be obvious when you have 2300 pages of legislation.
I've just come down to your level.
"....The Times also reported Democratic opposition to Bush's plan: "These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis," said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee..."
Nice call there Barney.
Hmmmm, maybe the reason for the recession is Barney Frank???
I would love to hear Barney's response. On the face of it he was wildly off.
Is it possible that there were not the problems then that there are today because of the entire financial meltdown? It is also possible they have been horribly mismanaged. I dont have a problem admitting that if its true.
You need to own up to all the things you refuse to acknowledge about how badly our free market system has operated of late. Of course you wont because its absolutely perfect. lol.
Not so fast my friend. I have complained in these forums about how our government allowed a wholesale sell out for foriegn manufacturing. That is criticism of our free market system. Not only do we lose those jobs, but we lose experience and know how. I was talking with one guy who candidly acknowledged that cell phone batteries will never be made in America as we simply don't have the know how - in a make or buy scenario, buy wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Havakasha
S&L you chose to single out three states and ignore all the others that are having immense problems. ARIZONA ring a bell? All i did was point out the obviousness of your bias. You ignored the fact that New York despite being blue had a Republican Governor for 12 years. If you want to blame Obama (and by the way Obama is quite good at accepting responnsibility for problems. And if i say Bush wasnt its just a fact. Sorry if you see it simply as attacking Republicans.)as the executive of this country then you should be willing to say that the executives of states like Pataki, and Schwarznegger etc bear AT LEAST SOME RESPONSIBILITY for the problems of their states. I dont think that is an outrageous proposition though you seemed to guffaw at the mere suggestion that the problems were caused by many actors and not all of them were Democrats.
"the reason for the recession is that the govt artificially pumped up the real estate market". So you think thats the entire reason huh. It had nothing to do with the derivatives market and banks? it had nothing to do with the private sector acting irresponsible when it came to the real estate market as well? Phil Gramm's legislation was another piece of the puzzle. It had nothing to do with the Federal Reserve policy (which is supposed to operate independently of politics)? Remember Alan Greenspan (Republcan. There i go again. lol) held down interest rates to very low levels thereby helping to excacerbate the housing bubbles and let all kinds of private characters (banks, mortgage companies, people) exploit the situation. He also is famous for saying that there were no bubbles in the real estate and stock market. He also approved of the Bush tax cuts that helped to bring about large deficits in this country.
So pardon me if i get pissed when i hear you spout over and over again simplistic talking points about how THE WHOLE PROBLEM IS GOVT. NO its so much more complex than that. Its the whole system at play that has caused us to be in this mess. And sorry if i happen to think that Republicans are more at fault in the matter of our present economic situation and that they are playing politics (meaning they are not interested in passing anything. More interested in running out the clock till the 2010 elections) right now with our lives (unemployment benefits, energy legislation etc. as Obama at least tries to get things done. Sometimes i really wish we had a parliamentary system so the party in power could actually enact what they ran on without a 60 vote majority. At least then we might now who is at fault. On second thought everyone would still be blaming the other party no matter what. Oh well i guess all governmental systems and its people are falible. Oh my god what a revelation
Its a criticism of the system but once again its Govt in the lead. You got govt on the BRAIN.Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriuslyLong
But i do want to get this clear. Are you acknowledging that the free market system with all the players involved, govt, private companies and private citizens all play a part in the problems we have? If we can agree on that then oh boy have we made progress!
A couple points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Havakasha
1.) Obama getting things done? I take issue with that. He's getting legislation passed, yes. But what is also happening is that he is creating a larger government that is far more reaching than it was before his arrival. Here's something I'd like to understand better. It was said that 30 MM Americans did have health insurance, correct? So that's 10% of the US population, correct? Why must the legislation effect 100% of the American people? It doesn't make sense. Manage the exception and leave me the F alone.
2.) The derivatives where from bad mortgages. Get it?
3.) Assignable cause. It is a technique used in quality systems. What is the assignable cause of the recession. IMO it goes back to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
I love your blanket wholesale rejection of the financial reform bill without acknowledging the IMMENSE problems that Govt (in my opiinion Republicans who always oppose regulation) opinion allowed to happen and which businessess expoloited to the hilt.
And whats your obsession with the number of pages in a bill? Its something i never heard before until the Republicans started doing it in the last 2 years.
Its an OBVIOUS Republican talking point (if you dont believe me i will be happy to provide you with the research) Its plain silly and utterly meaningless. When you say shit like that i am sorry it just brings down my estimation of your intellect. Stop that crap. Please?
Can you name all the number of pages in all the bills for the past half century?
Did anyone ever make that the issue before now? What is wrong with people? Have they been struck by lightening that just makes them plain DUMB. :D
I quess i made my point on page numbers huh? lol