Stimulus Raised GDP by up to 4.2% in First Quarter

What else can i say but that once again the CBO (a non-partisan group that Republicans always quote when they like the results) has indicated that the stimulus package did more to help the economy than many people were predicting. You can disbelieve it but then you have to say i will never ever
quote anything from the CBO ever again, or you can believe it and try to understand their results and the significance of them. The choice is yours, but at least read what they have to say.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/37343761

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Originally Posted by Havakasha

What else can i say but that once again the CBO (a non-partisan group that Republicans always quote when they like the results) has indicated that the stimulus package did more to help the economy than many people were predicting. You can disbelieve it but then you have to say i will never ever
quote anything from the CBO ever again, or you can believe it and try to understand their results and the significance of them. The choice is yours, but at least read what they have to say.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/37343761

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That's nonsense. The economy worked itself out. As you know, I'm in plastics. In no way does the "stimulus" have anything remotely to do with plastics. In fact, our governments hate plastics lol. Our business has been good - from vending machines to pool pumps to circut breakers to water softeners to junction boxes on the back of solar panels........

I will agree that the stimulus increased employment. The government hired more people to manage more programs lol. That and road construction. Real productive.

At the core, the stimulus has not met its goal of employment. That's why Obama and his goons are looking to hand out more. The only way to truely increase employment is get back to producing things that people want and need, and allow corporations to make money for their stockholders. That's were government has failed (in allowing jobs to be exported too freely). That along with the American consumers taste for foreign $hit. Tax that.

So i quess it would be fair to say you dont believe the CBO? lol. So you think the only jobs (in the millions) added were govt jobs? Wow that just seems to be a pretty biased position and one that doesnt fit with the facts. I would guess the CBO has a better overall view of the economy than you do. Sounds like you have a pretty biased opinion that wouldnt accept any study that differs with your point of view. When i have a chance i will try to find a breakdown on the % of jobs added that were govt versus private.

I keep saying this but i will say it one more time for you. EVEN conservative economists acknowledge that when you have a recession (and this one was the 2nd worst recession in the history of the US) YOU HAVE to stimulate the economy. It doesnt JUST "work itself out" as much as you want to believe that.

I know you believe our economic system works perfectly without any govt involvement :D but i think if anything, the past years prove the "free enterprise system", and a lack of govt oversight (hint:banks) can totally screw the economic system up.

Here is just one other example of how the govt can spur growth. As painful as that is for you. LOL.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/37354168

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Originally Posted by Havakasha

So i quess it would be fair to say you dont believe the CBO? lol. So you think the only jobs (in the millions) added were govt jobs? Wow that just seems to be a pretty biased position and one that doesnt fit with the facts. I would guess the CBO has a better overall view of the economy than you do. Sounds like you have a pretty biased opinion that wouldnt accept any study that differs with your point of view. When i have a chance i will try to find a breakdown on the % of jobs added that were govt versus private.

I keep saying this but i will say it one more time for you. EVEN conservative economists acknowledge that when you have a recession (and this one was the 2nd worst recession in the history of the US) YOU HAVE to stimulate the economy. It doesnt JUST "work itself out" as much as you want to believe that.

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Even conservative economists can be Keynesians. Keynesian economics are a politicians best friend. This is how politicians promise soooo much. They don't have to save the money in order to spend it.

Look, I'm in industry. The CBO can sit there in Washington and plan, scheme, report whatever. My feet hit the floor. I see my customers, and hear what they are saying. The Stimulus has nothing to do with ANY of them. The fact is that during the recession, consumers became savers, and now that they've saved enough, they are spending a little. That's what happens in a recession. The entire concept of stimulus is incongruent. The government wants us to spend what we don't have - so much that they will even subsidize certain purchases. It's just totally assinine. A useful item needn't be subsidized.

Let's ask Candleman, do your customers walk in and say "hey, that stimulus is allowing me to buy your finest candles!"? Well, in one of these threads, I tell Candleman that I'm simply not stimulated enough to visit one of my most beloved places on Earth (the Outer Banks) even though I really, really want to catch fish off the beach, and have my kids purchase some candles for their grandparents.

Its obvious we are not going to agree
Martin Feldstein was Reagan's economic advisor and supports the theory that you must stimulate the economy during a recession.
People cant save money when they have no jobs or have lost the value in their houses or lost their houses outright. They cant save what they dont have or dont make. In a normal recession things can turn around at a relatively quick pace, but THIS ISNT NO NORMAL RECESSION.
Of course customers dont talk about stimulus. People dont talk that way, at least the people i know. There are lots of hidden supports that a stimulus creates that people dont know about or in your case refuse to acknowledge. Stimulus at the very least helps support local, state govt's and small businesses which in turn keeps cops, fireman, and teachers in their jobs and who then in turn spend money. I i will accept the CBO's analysis which examines the whole of the economy, over one person with an obvious bias toward anything related to govt. Its obvious that private enterprise and govt operate hand in hand and always has. Its all matter of degree. And how about those Republican hypocrites who cry about Govt spending, but are all too ready to take it to help their communities and states during disasters, catastrophes and recessions.

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Originally Posted by Havakasha

Its obvious we are not going to agree
Martin Feldstein was Reagan's economic advisor and supports the theory that you must stimulate the economy during a recession.
People cant save money when they have no jobs or have lost the value in their houses or lost their houses outright. They cant save what they dont have or dont make. In a normal recession things can turn around at a relatively quick pace, but THIS ISNT NO NORMAL RECESSION.
Of course customers dont talk about stimulus. People dont talk that way, at least the people i know. There are lots of hidden supports that a stimulus creates that people dont know about or in your case refuse to acknowledge. Stimulus at the very least helps support local, state govt's and small businesses which in turn keeps cops, fireman, and teachers in their jobs and who then in turn spend money. I i will accept the CBO's analysis which examines the whole of the economy, over one person with an obvious bias toward anything related to govt. Its obvious that private enterprise and govt operate hand in hand and always has. Its all matter of degree. And how about those Republican hypocrites who cry about Govt spending, but are all too ready to take it to help their communities and states during disasters, catastrophes and recessions.

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Dear God - you've gone plain cooky.

Where do I start? With Martin? **** Martin, obviously he is / was one of those who felt it was fine to spend what you don't have (BTW - that doesn't make sense). According to statistics, only 10% are unemployed. Is that 10% going to bring down the remaining 90%? The value you lose in your home is a paper loss, not all together different than my paper loss in SIRI - note to homebuyers BUY WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD, and demonstrate some "personal responsibilty". The low point of your response is "hidden supports". If a tree falls in the woods and no one sees it, has it really fallen? If you and I can't see it, then why believe it is true? The plain truth is that you and I are far better "dispensers" of stimulus than our government will ever be, and we'll be far more efficient. Lastly, go ahead and lay faith in the CBO which is simply government. I trust myself 1000x than any politician. I'm not trying to be biased, but simply reporting what I see in the field - NO ONE is effected by this "stimulus". NO ONE!

I do believe that the government can take actions to make things better, but there is a line....... well there used to be.

Love you brother!

Martin FELDSTEIN. lol
Going round and round. You're a kook, no you're a kook.
I think you know better S&L. Its not just 10% unemployment. Its also those who arent even looking for Jobs because they have given up. i never heard someone quite so unconcerned about an official 10% unemployment rate.
Besides this recession's impact is way beyond just the unemployment rate.
But then i know you now all that, but simply lost your senses when you heard the word GOVERNMENT. :D
Are you actually saying that 10% unemployment doesnt have a major effect on the rest of the 90% of people or the overall economy? According to you then we can accept 10% unemployment as a pretty good #. Then why not 20% unemployment. Surely 20% arent going to have a great impact on the rest of the 80%? And you think i am kooky?

The value of your home is on paper just as the stock market losses are. But are you seriously suggesting that that doesnt impact the economy? Not to mention that some people have to move and are forced to sell when prices are down.And people sometime count on their stocks to cash in to use for living.

"no one is affected by the stimulus. Not one." Thats REALLY kooky. But i still love you brother. :)

CBO says stimulus kept unemployment rate lower
By Stephen Dinan 6:27 p.m., Tuesday, May 25, 2010

The stimulus law was responsible for funding between 1.2 million and 2.8 million jobs in the first quarter of this year and kept the unemployment rate lower than it would otherwise have been, the Congressional Budget Office said in a new analysis Tuesday.

The analysis said the gross domestic product, the measure of the country's economy, was between 1.7 and 4.2 percent higher than it would otherwise have been without the $862 billion program, which passed Congress in February 2009 almost exclusively on the strength of Democratic votes.

As for unemployment, even though the rate hovered around 10 percent during the quarter, CBO said that could have been as high as 11.5 percent without the stimulus.

CBO said the stimulus's effects will peak this year and then shrink next year, and fade away by the end of 2012.

The agency's figures are slightly better than its previous estimate three months ago, and the analysts said the boost was due to fast-than-expected spending.

CBO's analysis was based on economic modeling derived from past spending and tax-cut programs, which means its calculations are an estimate of what is going on, not an actual count of specific jobs created.

Despite the visible hand of the government trying to "stimulate" the real estate market, foreclosures are still rising. You can blame years of neglect of the concept of personal responsibility for the problem (enabled by the same goofs who are trying to stimulate it)

News flash - the top 1% fo the richest paid 40.1% of all income tax, and yes, 47% don't pay anything at all LOL. You go girl (Hillary). The problem with this old inflammatory line is that it is becoming transparent.

The difference between you and I is that I have little faith in our government, and you apparently do. It is as if you believe in fighting two unfunded wars. It is as if you believe that underfunded social security is ok. It is as if you think that 47% of Americans not paying income tax is ok. It is as if trillions of dollars of debt is ok. It is as if unsecured borders are ok. Please understand that the greed of Wall Street = greed of Washington DC. The crooks on Wall St are of the same ilk of the crooks from DC. Our government is a f'ing mess. Obama to the rescue!!! lol

You put a lot of words in my mouth. Thats ok. I know they are not my positions.
The only thing i will agree with you on, is that yes i do want govt to protect us from the greed of the free market system. Call me crazy. I do want consumer protections as they relate to banks and credit cards, and i do want more regulation of the banks and the oil industry etc. We have seen what 8 years under Bush have done to the regulatory system of this country. They stripped it bare and stocked it full of industry people who care only about protecting the industries interests and not us citizens. Funny how people like you dont recognize the absolute corruption and stacking of the decks by the powerful money interests in this country.

http://www.ronpaul.com/2009-05-16/ro...ian-economics/

The best 8 minutes you might ever have. Be enlightened.

Are you also a fan of Rand Paul? LOL. Can you say wacko?
I believe he got himself in a hell of a mess for implying that private business should have the right
to discriminate. Oh watching him backpedal on that one was a sight to see.

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Originally Posted by Havakasha

You put a lot of words in my mouth. Thats ok. I know they are not my positions.
The only thing i will agree with you on, is that yes i do want govt to protect us from the greed of the free market system. Call me crazy. I do want consumer protections as they relate to banks and credit cards, and i do want more regulation of the banks and the oil industry etc. We have seen what 8 years under Bush have done to the regulatory system of this country. They stripped it bare and stocked it full of industry people who care only about protecting the industries interests and not us citizens. Funny how people like you dont recognize the absolute corruption and stacking of the decks by the powerful money interests in this country.

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Hey, that was carefully thought out, "it is as if..............."

"Funny how people like you dont recognize the absolute corruption and stacking of the decks by the powerful money interests in this country" - Did you read what I wrote above? It is you cannot see that our government is EXACTLY what you are talking about!!! Don't let the illusion of policy fool you.

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Originally Posted by Havakasha

Are you also a fan of Rand Paul? LOL. Can you say wacko?
I believe he got himself in a hell of a mess for implying that private business should have the right
to discriminate. Oh watching him backpedal on that one was a sight to see.

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No, I'm a fan of Austrian Economics. Old school. "This is America. In America, we get up, go to work and solve our problems". That used to be the way it was, but then the government decided to solve our problems for us. That is where the power, greed and corruption is.

I see a difference between an Obama administration which is trying to regulate and incoporate consumer protections and a Bush administration
which dismantled consumer protections.

You seem to see no difference and thats where we have a fundamental disagreement.
I actually like some of what Ron Paul says, but if you really dig down deep he also believes in some pretty scary things. Watch his son (whom he supports) in his campaign and maybe you will start to discover some of the deficiencies of some of those beliefs.

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Originally Posted by SiriuslyLong

No, I'm a fan of Austrian Economics. Old school. "This is America. In America, we get up, go to work and solve our problems". That used to be the way it was, but then the government decided to solve our problems for us. That is where the power, greed and corruption is.

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Oh i completely agree. Lets get to work and solve our problems. I dont want govt involved anymore than they have to be. The problem is that right now everything is pretty much stacked in favor of the big money corporations and lobbyists. I want to CHANGE the system as it is right now and sometimes you need govt to do that. Its a new world and when bankers and others figure out sophisticated schemes to screw us we need protections. I want public financing of elections for example so no one can buy elections and insure that you dont have to be a millionaire to run for office.

Do you want to give free reign to oil companies to control how they are regulated or do you want some non corrupt (unlike now) body to check into whether what they are doing is in our or our fisherman's interests?

Great conversation here guys. Keep it going.

My name was brought up once, and it had to do with the stimulus plan.

This is my take from a retail store owners perspective. We also manufacture and sell into the wholesale market to other retail store owners.

I don't see any positive effect from the stimulus spending directly. I haven't had one family come in and talk to me about how a job was saved by the government. I haven't heard that anyone bought a house that couldn't buy a house without the rebate program.

I'm not going to say that it hasn't helped. But, from my contacts and conversations with my customers, both retail and wholesale, I haven't heard a positive word.

I think those of us that didn't lose jobs, did stop spending. I'm still not spending. My savings are growing though. And if I wanted to spend I could. I think that is when we will recover from the recession. It will be when people like me decide to start spending again.

I think the government had to get involved in saving General Motors and some of the banks. I think we are getting that money back. I think it's not a bad idea for us to spend money on roads, bridges, water and sewer systems, and other infrastructure projects. I just don't like that we are borrowing the money for these programs. I have a big problem with spending money that we don't have a clue how we will ever pay it back.

That's not a Liberal or Conservative, Democrat or Republican problem. That is a problem with our system.

I think if we would have let things get really bad, we might have seen a better recovery then what we have now. If we wouldn't have borrowed so much money, we might have forced ourselves into tax increases that would have forced EVERY American to pay a fair share of this recovery. Our deficit spending has gone on and on and on and on and on for far too long. Whoever is in office seems to want to spend money we don't have. Regan was great at it, Bush was better, and Obama is better yet.

I do want the government to watch out for me. I love highway safety and food inspectors and national defense. I love the EPA and OSHA. Those sort of agencies keep our cars, roads, food, drugs, workplaces, our air and our water better and safer than if they didin't exist. I like paying for that type of protection.

OK, now I'm rambling......

Chuck

"and others figure out sophisticated schemes to screw us we need protections"

Clearly your are talkling about government itself lol.

I have to hand it to Candleman for another fantastic post. Right up above Lloyd once again brings up the Bush vs. Obama comparison. Obiviously Candleman, he has a political agenda, and with that agenda, he will always have bias and his objectivity is indeed questionable. If you want to talk about the polictical past, choose the subject of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (or whatever they are called). These are government institutions (now officially) with the charter of making housing "affordable" for everyone, and very democratically supported (John chime in with the details). Hey, I got an idea! Let's loan a supermarket grocery packer $300,000 for house because the social utopians want all to experience home ownership.......................

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Originally Posted by candleman

Great conversation here guys. Keep it going.

My name was brought up once, and it had to do with the stimulus plan.

This is my take from a retail store owners perspective. We also manufacture and sell into the wholesale market to other retail store owners.

I don't see any positive effect from the stimulus spending directly. I haven't had one family come in and talk to me about how a job was saved by the government. I haven't heard that anyone bought a house that couldn't buy a house without the rebate program.

I'm not going to say that it hasn't helped. But, from my contacts and conversations with my customers, both retail and wholesale, I haven't heard a positive word.

I think those of us that didn't lose jobs, did stop spending. I'm still not spending. My savings are growing though. And if I wanted to spend I could. I think that is when we will recover from the recession. It will be when people like me decide to start spending again.

I think the government had to get involved in saving General Motors and some of the banks. I think we are getting that money back. I think it's not a bad idea for us to spend money on roads, bridges, water and sewer systems, and other infrastructure projects. I just don't like that we are borrowing the money for these programs. I have a big problem with spending money that we don't have a clue how we will ever pay it back.

That's not a Liberal or Conservative, Democrat or Republican problem. That is a problem with our system.

I think if we would have let things get really bad, we might have seen a better recovery then what we have now. If we wouldn't have borrowed so much money, we might have forced ourselves into tax increases that would have forced EVERY American to pay a fair share of this recovery. Our deficit spending has gone on and on and on and on and on for far too long. Whoever is in office seems to want to spend money we don't have. Regan was great at it, Bush was better, and Obama is better yet.

I do want the government to watch out for me. I love highway safety and food inspectors and national defense. I love the EPA and OSHA. Those sort of agencies keep our cars, roads, food, drugs, workplaces, our air and our water better and safer than if they didin't exist. I like paying for that type of protection.

OK, now I'm rambling......

Chuck

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Thanks again Chuck. I'm watching Iron Chef America and they are having a Bonita battle. I once chartered a boat out of Hatteras. The winds were whipping out of the SW for like 6 days straight. The fishing was horrible. We hooked one Bonita and one Maui Maui. We asked the first mate what to do with the Bonita. He laughed and in a typical accent said "make tuna fish sandwiches" which we did. It was the first $1400 tuna fish sandwich I ate. LOL.

I'm in full agreement with what you cite as the role of government. Paying things back is clearly a concept Obama isn't worried about. The stupid $hit is simply trying to reinflate the bubble that already burst. What's the definition of insanity?