Video capture of SIRI Level 2.....with a floating bid that doesn't get filled.

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Originally Posted by Demian

I added jmm232's links at the top of this thread to consolidate everything we have thus far....

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Good - I think one of the best things we can do right now is get everything consolidated on a single thread so it will make the referencing easier down the line. It's obvious based on the number of new posters that interest in SIRI is finally coming back. The more ammunition we have stacked up in this thread - the easier it will be to turn everyone towards a productive solution to the manipulation when it continues.....

It will also make it easier to reference a single link in my letters / emails to the media or whoever I start adding to my contact list for this monster......

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Originally Posted by Brandon Matthews

sent to me via e-mail...
Reading Market-Makers

How to read the hints that they give...

Many traders believe that Market Makers will "signal" moves in advance buy using small amounts of buys or sells as "signals". The "signals" are such a small amount of shares that no trader would have paid a commission that costs more than the amount of shares bought. The "signals" are from one market maker to another.

• 100 I need shares.
• 200 I need shares badly, but do not take the stock down.
• 300 Take the price down so I can load shares
• 400 Keep trading it sideways.
• 500 Gap the stock.

This is a theory put forth by a lot of penny stock traders. This is not a guaranteed trading method but can lend some insight to communications.

We've worked on OTC (NASDAQ) desks and worked with many actual market makers. We've never worked with the smallest of penny stock market makers, those trading shares below $0.10, but we can attest that many market makers will use certain signals that can be helpful - especially helpful for those of us trading small stocks, but not ones like the example above, the tiny stocks.

When a market maker is at the bid or offer showing 100 shares for sell or purchase, in a majority of the cases, he or she does not have 100 shares (only) for sale. Market makers are in the game to make money for themselves as well, while still executing orders for clients.

They will almost never show their hand to let others know what order they are working. For instance, let's say a market maker has an order, or know he will be getting an order to purchase 2,000 shares of a stock at $5.00. He will never bid for the full 2,000 shares. he will place a 100 or 200 share bid at $5.00. Why? Simple. What if there is someone, possibly another market maker hoping to sell 2,000 (or more) shares. If the market maker places all 2,000 shares at the bid at $5.00, the seller can them immediately put the shares to him and the trade is over, all 2,000 shares at $5.00.

The market maker with the bid will put up only 100-200 shares to see if any fish bite. If they do, he'll remember who sold him those shares and move his bid down to $4.95 or so and see if he can get more there. If he does, great, he'll keep working the price down as far as he can go to get the shares as cheaply as possible. Perhaps he now has 2,000 shares with an average price of $4.90. When his customer comes along with the order to buy the 2,000 shares at up to $5.00, he can then sell them to his customer at $4.95, or $5.00 for that matter. At $4.95, the customer is happy because he would have paid up to $5.00 per share and the market maker is happy because he made $0.05 on each share.

If the market maker put up a bid for the full 2,000 shares, that would cause many market makers to lift their price higher. Why not? They see that somebody out there has a decent order and they want to sell at the highest price possible. That's why many marker makers will never post more than 100-200 share bids or offers unless they have a very large order.

Even if the market maker would buy all 2,000 shares at $5.00. Perhaps he's busy and doesn't care to "work" the order for a better price, he'll still put only 100 to 200 shares on the bid. If someone offers him 2,000, he can accept that (he's only on the hook for the 100 or 200 he had listed) and close the trade if he wants.


For another quick example, let's say that a company you are looking to buy has announced that they are repurchasing their own stock - and a lot of it. They'll use a brokerage firm, of course. Watching the Level II quotes may let you know who might have the order and what they are willing to pay. Let's say Raymond James (RAJA) has been bidding all week for shares at $1.00, and almost never moved. They've been buying at that level all week. The next week, RAJA is nowhere to be found, but another broker is now bidding the same way. You can almost bank on it that the company is willing to pay at least $1.00 for their shares and will soak up almost any number of shares to keep the price there. They are also spreading around the order to several brokers to keep them happy. In 99% of the time, they will be brokers who research that company's stock. The only way researchers get paid and make any money doing the research is by getting orders. Company's will almost always send these orders to the firms that research them as a 'thank you' for the research (as long as it's positive). Buying those shares, if you already like that company, at $1.00 would make a nice bet as the company looks like they are willing to do what it takes to place a floor at $1.00 and keep that stock there or above.

How can you be sure it's the company's order? Here's a VERY important tip: When a company is buying their own shares back, they cannot be the first trade, and cannot trade in the last half-hour of the day. So, if we do see RAJA or others bidding for shares and that bid disappears at 3:30 ET, a half-hour before the market closes, you've found the company's broker - at least for that day or week.





http://falconstocks.com/information/...rketmakers.htm

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Brandon...

Thanks for passing on...I don't doubt this kind of thing happens but not exlusively. We also know that 100 blocks et al, are used for outright price manipulation or trickery..and in the case of partial orders. But this kind of info can only assist a trader/investor when trying to decipher what may be going on in a given situation. One more thing to think of as a "maybe".

I look at MM's (and their powers) like this. First they are a sanctioned (MMs by NASD and Specialists by NYSE) group of firms that have been entrusted to "be the house" as some like to use the Vegas analogy. That's as far as I would go in the analogy cause IMHO Vegas and Wall Street are very different. But I will say they are the equivalent of the house because of their involvement in EVERY single trade that happens. And the fact that they have so many capabilities in the trading process (meaning decide who they will trade with and in what tranches, how many shares they buy and hold or sell etc..), to me that makes them the house..even though tehcnically there is not supposed to be a "house" in ostensible free-market, buyer to seller trading. But beyond them being the house, they are also responsible for controlling wealth accumulation. Let's face it. If you didn't have a group like MM's and Specialists there to create, yes, faux appearance, enticing opportunity that takes you out back, etc...you would easily have too many people making too much money in the market. We'd all have millions in gains and no losses..which would wreak havoc on not only our class system but also our overall economic balance (both of which our society is predicated upon and requires in its current form)...and which as most know is tenuous at best no matter what era we are in or to what degree we have problems. Maintaining a stable economy so that both inflation and deflation remain in the proper balance is a delicate operation to say the least. But my point about MM's is.. of course they are going to be given powers or allowed to develop powers that became accepted by the SEC for what they accomplish. I'm not saying I love having to fight a "system" but I understand one has to be in place otherwise you have chaos. Someone always has to be in charge, someone always has to have more power, and someone always has to be on the wrong side of the trade (as it were).

Let's get something clear - all of you I hope will listen to me on this:

Just because something is the way it is - and is wrong - does not mean I or anyone else should tolerate manipulation. The tone I'm catching from several of you is that we should just lay down and accept that manipulation will take place and blah blah blah.... are you f'ing kidding me......

If someone steals money from me - they deserve justice be served upon them
If someone breaks into my home and threatens my life - I will defend myself and shoot them.
If someone violates my trust in a public position (politicians/SEC) I will not just lay down and accept it without trying to prompt or bring about reform

It's a matter of right versus wrong.... not right versus acceptable wrong...

What the hell has happened to this country.... again ... I'm starting to feel like the Glen Beck of this board.....

Know this - I will NEVER just accept and neither should anyone else - abuse of our institutional systems that violates (as I believe they do) my constitutional right to my pursuit of happiness by way of illegal/ie nefarious activity that allows them to become more wealthy while the common citizen grows poorer....

It's like saying when the mob ran Chicago - we should have just told Elliot Ness to accept it was part of the system and should be left alone.....

I need a drink.... I may or may not return....

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Originally Posted by sl62

Brandon...

Thanks for passing on...I don't doubt this kind of thing happens but not exlusively. We also know that 100 blocks et al, are used for outright price manipulation or trickery..and in the case of partial orders. But this kind of info can only assist a trader/investor when trying to decipher what may be going on in a given situation. One more thing to think of as a "maybe".

I look at MM's (and their powers) like this. First they are a sanctioned (MMs by NASD and Specialists by NYSE) group of firms that have been entrusted to "be the house" as some like to use the Vegas analogy. That's as far as I would go in the analogy cause IMHO Vegas and Wall Street are very different. But I will say they are the equivalent of the house because of their involvement in EVERY single trade that happens. And the fact that they have so many capabilities in the trading process (meaning decide who they will trade with and in what tranches, how many shares they buy and hold or sell etc..), to me that makes them the house..even though tehcnically there is not supposed to be a "house" in ostensible free-market, buyer to seller trading. But beyond them being the house, they are also responsible for controlling wealth accumulation. Let's face it. If you didn't have a group like MM's and Specialists there to create, yes, faux appearance, enticing opportunity that takes you out back, etc...you would easily have too many people making too much money in the market. We'd all have millions in gains and no losses..which would wreak havoc on not only our class system but also our overall economic balance (both of which our society is predicated upon and requires in its current form)...and which as most know is tenuous at best no matter what era we are in or to what degree we have problems. Maintaining a stable economy so that both inflation and deflation remain in the proper balance is a delicate operation to say the least. But my point about MM's is.. of course they are going to be given powers or allowed to develop powers that became accepted by the SEC for what they accomplish. I'm not saying I love having to fight a "system" but I understand one has to be in place otherwise you have chaos. Someone always has to be in charge, someone always has to have more power, and someone always has to be on the wrong side of the trade (as it were).

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Exactly. They are a necessary evil.

Well then that's three - anyone else want to jump on the "let the manipulators do what they will" bandwagon....

I'll make you a deal - if enough people come in this thread and tell me they agree that the manipulation is just something we should all live with and that we should accept someone artificially/illegally holding the SP down .....

I will leave this board and not return....

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Originally Posted by Paratrooper_Rick

Well then that's three - anyone else want to jump on the "let the manipulators do what they will" bandwagon....

I'll make you a deal - if enough people come in this thread and tell me they agree that the manipulation is just something we should all live with and that we should accept someone artificially/illegally holding the SP down .....

I will leave this board and not return....

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Don't throw up your arms Rick....A Winner never quits and quitter never Wins!

And thats one of the reasons that the frabric of our society is unwinding...

If it something is hard to accomplish its easy to give up then to make a stance! Keep up the good work! Tony:cool:

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Originally Posted by sl62

Brandon...

Thanks for passing on...I don't doubt this kind of thing happens but not exlusively. We also know that 100 blocks et al, are used for outright price manipulation or trickery..and in the case of partial orders. But this kind of info can only assist a trader/investor when trying to decipher what may be going on in a given situation. One more thing to think of as a "maybe".

I look at MM's (and their powers) like this. First they are a sanctioned (MMs by NASD and Specialists by NYSE) group of firms that have been entrusted to "be the house" as some like to use the Vegas analogy. That's as far as I would go in the analogy cause IMHO Vegas and Wall Street are very different. But I will say they are the equivalent of the house because of their involvement in EVERY single trade that happens. And the fact that they have so many capabilities in the trading process (meaning decide who they will trade with and in what tranches, how many shares they buy and hold or sell etc..), to me that makes them the house..even though tehcnically there is not supposed to be a "house" in ostensible free-market, buyer to seller trading. But beyond them being the house, they are also responsible for controlling wealth accumulation. Let's face it. If you didn't have a group like MM's and Specialists there to create, yes, faux appearance, enticing opportunity that takes you out back, etc...you would easily have too many people making too much money in the market. We'd all have millions in gains and no losses..which would wreak havoc on not only our class system but also our overall economic balance (both of which our society is predicated upon and requires in its current form)...and which as most know is tenuous at best no matter what era we are in or to what degree we have problems. Maintaining a stable economy so that both inflation and deflation remain in the proper balance is a delicate operation to say the least. But my point about MM's is.. of course they are going to be given powers or allowed to develop powers that became accepted by the SEC for what they accomplish. I'm not saying I love having to fight a "system" but I understand one has to be in place otherwise you have chaos. Someone always has to be in charge, someone always has to have more power, and someone always has to be on the wrong side of the trade (as it were).

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I agree with your accessment of MM power. Yes, as Ive stated many times they can take apple to .01 tomorrow if they wanted too. Not hard. What would the consequences be? Thats an entire other story. With computers, and naked short selling, anything is possible. Thats whats sad. We give too much control to the MM's. They need to be able justify why a stock is trading their, and thats about it. Since they cant justify why apple would go from $90 to .01 cent in a day, with no news, the reprecusions from such an act would rock the foundations of wall street.
So.... Lets look at reality?
Whats wrong with pricing SiriusXM higher? Its obviously supressed beyond even to most gloomy future earning potential outlook. Its as a company right now,that might never make any money in any quarter. SO can they justify .30 cents? Sure they can. Can they justify $1? Sure they can. So my point is, why should a MM be allowed to supress a stock illegally, when buying interest has warrented a high higher rise(the dead stop at .40 was orchestrated, and completely intentional). That was not a major resistance level, analsyist opinion of its value price, or a majic number being reached on their market cap. It was simply a market maker holding point, artifically constructed compeletly outside of the reality of that days tradign demands. Selling at .40 cents wasnt triggered until its incredibly long delay at clearing it. This is the kind of stuff that pisses me off. I understand they need a market, and cant let a stock go straight up, I understand that. But if the buys and sells of that day warrent it, its not dangerous to our economy, or allowing too much money to enter the system. Its a zero sum game, SL62. Those trillions were never there. Those companies werent worth the price those people paid for those stocks. So when a true market condition occurs(capitalization), we find out what stocks are really worth. When they settle from constant selling pressures from people who lose confidence in the stocks abilities to futher generate profits, grow higher in stock price, and just need money(as many amercians found themselves in). When this happens and true value is found(on a run up, its who sells and buys and where that matters). If I buy a stock for $1 and sell it for $10, I made $9. But I probably bought that stock off a guy who bought it at $10 and sold it to me at $1. The difference between me and him is a zero sum game. Now its obviously a tad more complex than that, and blocks of shares are taken at many prices, etc... But since that money never was there, only the people smart enough to sell to people who still thought it was, made money. They probably made a lot of money. And the rest lost it.
So basically my end point is, if the market went up 10000 points tomorrow, zero dollars has entered the "cash flow" of the dollar. Those could nto possible be sold out at a 10000 gain. Too many sellers at once would wake up and sell, and by the time they all sold out, the stock market would be 10000 points lower. Its perceived value. You can count it in the M3 if you want too, but thats what got us into this problem to begin with. M1 is much more accurate of true value, and M2 to a degree as well. M3 is a dream about to be shattered.

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Originally Posted by Sworntwofun

Don't throw up your arms Rick....A Winner never quits and quitter never Wins!

And thats one of the reasons that the frabric of our society is unwinding...

If it something is hard to accomplish its easy to give up then to make a stance! Keep up the good work! Tony:cool:

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Hey Tony -

It seems funny to be talking to you in the forum as we spend so much of the day talking to each other.

Anyway, my comment was about market makers. They are completely necessary. They are the only thing that keeps a stock from going straight up and crashing into worthless rubble. There has to be resistance or the market couldn't hold.

Ya, it sucks, but that is reality. Sometimes it seems like the MM's are playing a little too hard, but they have to realize the values of the stocks that they hold. They cannot afford to take a loss on such large numbers of stock holdings.

That is just the way it works.

Trying to form a big campaign against them is laughable.

You know that I agree with you on the fact of winners and losers.

Haven't seen Ray, he must be out hunting coyotes!

Hope you are having a great weekend,

Bill

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Originally Posted by billhart22

Hey Tony -

It seems funny to be talking to you in the forum as we spend so much of the day talking to each other.

Anyway, my comment was about market makers. They are completely necessary. They are the only thing that keeps a stock from going straight up and crashing into worthless rubble. There has to be resistance or the market couldn't hold.

Ya, it sucks, but that is reality. Sometimes it seems like the MM's are playing a little too hard, but they have to realize the values of the stocks that they hold. They cannot afford to take a loss on such large numbers of stock holdings.

That is just the way it works.

Trying to form a big campaign against them is laughable.

You know that I agree with you on the fact of winners and losers.

Haven't seen Ray, he must be out hunting coyotes!

Hope you are having a great weekend,

Bill

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Once again bill - since you apparently are primarily here to tout your knowledge of reality and why we have to accept the manipulation - you continue to miss the point -

RIGHT VS. WRONG

I don't know what your interest is in SIRI and I don't care - what I do care about is someone spouting propagandist views expecting me to let the manipulation take place because it "is the way it is"

You cannot tell me the value of this company is what it is currently held at. Period. To say so is just complete BS. I look back on the charts for wednesday, thursday, and friday and see three huge spikes downward - which if they had not been artificially caused - would have allowed this stock to reach a fair value based on the simple rules of supply and demand... if someone is willing to pay a higher price for SIRI - because they feel the company is valued higher - it should be allowed to take place. That is the essence of a fair and balanced free market - where supply/demand are constantly playing tug of war with the SP. Artificially keeping it at one point or another is NOT anything other than an illegal and greedy mechanism being used against retail investors while the MM's make more money off our backs.

Do you short this stock? Do you know others that are? I mean why do you appear to WANT this stock to stay undervalued.... surely there has to be some kind of intelligent reason (or not) to justify your stance. Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining...

Rick

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Originally Posted by Paratrooper_Rick

Once again bill - since you apparently are primarily here to tout your knowledge of reality and why we have to accept the manipulation - you continue to miss the point -

RIGHT VS. WRONG

I don't know what your interest is in SIRI and I don't care - what I do care about is someone spouting propagandist views expecting me to let the manipulation take place because it "is the way it is"

You cannot tell me the value of this company is what it is currently held at. Period. To say so is just complete BS. I look back on the charts for wednesday, thursday, and friday and see three huge spikes downward - which if they had not been artificially caused - would have allowed this stock to reach a fair value based on the simple rules of supply and demand... if someone is willing to pay a higher price for SIRI - because they feel the company is valued higher - it should be allowed to take place. That is the essence of a fair and balanced free market - where supply/demand are constantly playing tug of war with the SP. Artificially keeping it at one point or another is NOT anything other than an illegal and greedy mechanism being used against retail investors while the MM's make more money off our backs.

Do you short this stock? Do you know others that are? I mean why do you appear to WANT this stock to stay undervalued.... surely there has to be some kind of intelligent reason (or not) to justify your stance. Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining...

Rick

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I am not missing any point. So, WTF ever. This subject has been gone over so many times in the past. If you can whip the MM's have at it.

No, I do not short stocks and want SIRI to succeed, but don't try telling me what to do. We used to talk like that when I was in the Marine Corps. 40 years later, it just doesn't impress me anymore.