just trying to keep the price down until they do get some activity and then they can show their customers huge gains and gain their trust more......i have no idea lolQuote:
Originally Posted by jelax
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just trying to keep the price down until they do get some activity and then they can show their customers huge gains and gain their trust more......i have no idea lolQuote:
Originally Posted by jelax
I was a real customer today! I bought 13k of it. But I didn't buy all at once. It bought them in chunks really weird. Before it bought a whole bunch at a time.
http://mypearl.us/images/siri.bmp
Now that we understand the basics, here's the scam. I'm an MM and i know the real bid and ask are .35/.36.
I can now buy shares at .3501 and turn around and sell them for .3599. All day. Over and over. do that X 27 million plus your agency fees and you have a pretty good day.
I would think the chunks are because they have to find someone selling that quantity at that price. So, if you place order for 13k shares, and there's only two sellers at your bid price with a total of 1000 shares, then you have remaining order of 12,000 shares.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypearl
This happened to me a few weeks back when I placed an order for 100,000 shares on a 'all or none' basis. The order sat, unfilled. I called my broker and said what's the deal, and he explained that I needed to revise the order to drop the 'all or none', and then it traded quickly in chunks, just as yours did.
but who they buyin' from at .3501? The Ask is .36.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Matthews
And who they sellin' to at .3599, the bid is only .35?
still confused....oh well...no problem. Thanks for the info...still helpful...I'm gettin' there!
The Manipulative MM's make money on spreads. By using a combination of the three methods below, the price could be stagnant for a while.
From the SEC website:
- Trading Ahead. In certain instances, specialists filled one agency order through a proprietary trade for their firm's account while a matchable agency order was present on the opposite side of the market, thereby improperly "trading ahead" of such opposite-side executable agency order. The customer order that was traded ahead of was then disadvantaged when it was subsequently executed at a price that was inferior to the price received by the firm's proprietary account. For example, if a specialist has present on his book, at the same time, a marketable customer order to buy 1,000 shares of a security and a marketable customer order to sell 1,000 shares of the same security, the specialist would be obligated to pair off those matchable orders. Trading ahead would occur if the specialist filled the sell order from the firm's proprietary account at $25.00 per share, and then subsequently executed the buy order at the inferior price of $25.05 per share. In this example, the buy order received a price inferior to that which it was entitled ($25.00) and the customer was disadvantaged by $50.00 (1,000 shares x $0.05 per share).
- Interpositioning. In certain instances, after trading ahead, specialists also traded proprietarily with the matchable opposite-side agency order that had been traded ahead of, thereby "interpositioning" themselves between the two agency orders that should have been paired off in the first instance. By participating on both sides of trades, the specialist captured the spread between the purchase and sale prices, thereby disadvantaging the other parties to the transactions. Alternatively, specialists sometimes sold shares of a security into a customer buy order, and then filled the customer sell order by buying for the firm's proprietary account at a lower price. In either case, the specialists participated on both sides of trades, capturing the spread between the purchase and sale prices, and disadvantaging the other parties to the transaction.
- Trading Ahead of Unexecuted Open or Cancelled Orders. In certain instances, specialists traded ahead of opposite-side executable agency orders, as described above, but in these instances, the unexecuted orders were left open until the end of the trading day, or were cancelled by the customer prior to the close of the trading day before receiving an execution.
they aren't doing it all at once. They flip pennies all day. You see ISEG bidding at .3520 . They are buying for their own account. Then you see ISEG selling at .3580. They are selling the shares that they bought at .3520Quote:
Originally Posted by underway
The MM's have their own accounts. Customer orders are supposed to be filled before their own accounts, but that is not happening with SIRI.
MM=MarketMakersQuote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Matthews
Think of the transaction events in four separate sales
A customer wants to Sell at .35
A customer wants to Buy at .36
Ordinarily the Transaction would be completed with a .35 price.
But...
A customer wants to Sell at .35
intervention occurs!!!
THE MM BUYER STEPS IN AT .3501 BUY PRICE for their account
THE MM SELLER SETS UP A .3550 SELL PRICE from their account
A customer wanting to Buy at .36 must wait
Meanwhile, other sellers are lowering their asks (and are being interviened) and a price channel is frozen. The customer may not drop their bid as low as the MM ask and allows the MM to intervene with multiple purchase/sales points. This activity stifles the rise of the stock due to the inability of the customer to realise any gain in purchase price.
Brandon................. what happens if you jump in ahead of their blocking trades with a trade of your own to four decimal places? Do they have all the time in the world to continously throw up roadblocks? Therefore, many speedy inserts of new buys or sells are inneffectual? Thanks I appreciate your time. I realize this is grammar school to you. P.S. Where's sl62 been? .. killer.
No that tends to work. We talk about it all the time. If we determine the spread that day we can get a pretty good idea on entry and exit points.Quote:
Originally Posted by killerkaul
For those of us that have made certain calls, this is the basis of most mornings determinations. We will see the bids and asks stacked at certain prices. The MM's have a bad habit of filling buy orders out of the gate and dropping the price at the open .We can usually ascertain how low it might go. Come the afternoon, we can see where the large number of sells occur, and know it will go no higher than that.
But, if cust has sell order at .35, and MM buyer offering .3501 in your example, the deal should close since buyer is offering more than the seller wants. And in MM seller is at .3550, then the customer wanting to buy at limit .36, would theoretically buy the MM offer at .3550, cause it's lower than his limit of .36.Quote:
Originally Posted by bababoooie
I'm not sure I see how it works, nor am I seeing why the MMs would do this. I would think they want supply/demand to move the stock one way or the other since they make money either way. Having it stuck in a sort of fibrilating mode (using the heart analogy) doesn't make sense to me. I'm missing this for sure. sorry. no big deal. I'm confident when SIRI starts showing good news via their own financials and stats, the stock will draw in big investors and that will drive the stock up. Until that happens, as I stated in an earlier post today, i think SIRI is at an equilibrium with few 'big buyers' in play. That will change..hopefully SOON!
I know it is either now installed in all models...or available in all models now, and that was not the case as recently as last year. Let me do some fact checking. The point though is that there are MANY more vehicle models with SATRAD available now straight from the dealership which bodes for higher penetration rates and better sub rates.Quote:
Originally Posted by choirgirl
This might be a really stupid question:
I thought that when you placed a buy or sell order that you were "in line" based on the time you place the order. I'm gathering that is not true?
In the prior example where the SP was sitting at .35, and I place a limit buy order at .36.........I would expect it to be processed immediately. If it takes a few minutes, I thought that was because I had to wait for orders ahead of me to fill until my "turn" came up. In that scenario, a MM putting in a buy order of .3520 would not block anything.....I thought it was simply a wait 'till your turn comes up sort of thing.
I'm sensing that this is why I've had a hard time fully understanding level II !!! I'm completely off base with this notion of placing an order and being "in line" to wait my turn, aren't I?
orders with the same price go by time when ordered,but most orders are lined up according to price,so if selling you have to have someone willing to pay that price and vice versa,the Market Makers(mm's) skirt this by adding or subtracting .0001 of a penny with multiple 100 share orders.
choirgirl,Quote:
Originally Posted by choirgirl
My apologies, BMW has SATRAD as an OPTION in all of it's models as of 2009. Hyundai and KIA now have satrad and 3 month trial subs as part of new car purchases.
Thinking about this some more....(dangerous, I know)....
Because this stock is so heavily diluted in terms of shares outstanding, I think it will take huge blocks of shares to really move this SIRI market. Like 100 million block, right?
the main reason for this right now is that everyone who wants to buy or sell is doing it with limit orders,another words smart investors...the real movement will come when big money shows up and puts in market orders,because they want in at this price under a $1sp...and of course then the shorts will panic and then watch out for the big squeeze,because the lower the daily vol. the longer to cover the shorts..
Underway, I think I have the same issues as you in understanding this process. I believe we are looking at this from the same angle.....I feel stupid....do you??? :D
Another question: Why do you sometimes see a "lull" in trading on level II. For instance let's say there are 50k sell orders listed at .30 and 50k buy orders listed at .40. Here's this .10 gap. In theory this will just sit without any activity because the buy and sell can't match each other correct? What actually makes the transaction "happen" in this case?
Do some of the buys raise their price and some of the sells lower their price until they meet? I see this as a game of chicken.....somebody has to move in order to make something happen. Correct or totally wrong?
Or, is this where the MM's jump in and put some of their blocks in the .10 gap to keep it trading in this channel?........thereby blocking action for the others until they decide to "give in"?
I thought I saw some of this the last two days. The sell side looked like it wasn't budging much. Lots of larger blocks sitting at .34 or .35 and just not getting any action. I think this is what you guys were mentioning during the day right? Normally on level II, if you see a bunch of large blocks of sell orders that aren't budging.......is that going to draw the SP up to it (minus any MM manipulation that is)?
you are close,they won't be that big at once(at least by 1 customer)but they will do it over a couple of days smartly as they can.Quote:
Originally Posted by underway
I will probably make this the focus of tomorrows article. Although I have to do a lot of research first, my understanding is that Hyundai and Kia are 100% Daimler and the Euro cars is 90% The big 3 average 70%.Quote:
Originally Posted by asm610
Ironically, some of the worst auto numbers we got today were from the Japanese auto makers, which drag the average down to 62%.
All in all it was a good day. The lower GM data means less expenses to Sirius.
The japanese automakers don't offer us as much in the way of factory installs, so their data is not as meaningful as say, Fords.
Ford and Chrysler helped Sirius immensely. I haven't seen Hyundais numbers yet...like I said...need to research data.