Hopefully Obama can do what he did for IL for the USA

[Havakasha]

I like S&L's new economic theory. Blue states bad, red states good. LOL
I seem to remember a Democrat in the White House who balanced the budget and gave us surpluses. That would be Mr. Clinton. I seem to remember a Republican in the White House (that would be Mr. Bush) and a Republican controlled Congress (6 years) who gave us record deficits. And that was not during a recession when economists agree that Govt needs to spend when the private sector has shut down.

S&L have you checked out Arizona budget problems lately? Republican controlled state i believe. Even has Mr. McCain as a Senator. Remember that guy who was going to hire Phil Gramm as his Treasury Security. Remember him? Know anything about him? Study hard before you spout. You didnt even know Republicans controlled the Congress for 6 years under Bush (where i am from thats kind of BASIC information. lol) Phil Gramm is the guy partly responsible for proposing and helping to pass legislation that gave us this deep deep recession we are in.

[Havakasha]

Projected budget gaps for 2011.

Arizona -- 35.3%
New York -- 15.5%
Illinois --36.1%
Maine -- 32.1%
etc.

Lots of different ways to look at States balance sheets. All we DO know is that States (plural) are hurting. So S&L i would resist the attempt to try simplistic economic theories on why one state is worse off than another. You know what i mean?

[SiriuslyLong]

I like S&L's new economic theory. Blue states bad, red states good. LOL
I seem to remember a Democrat in the White House who balanced the budget and gave us surpluses. That would be Mr. Clinton. I seem to remember a Republican in the White House (that would be Mr. Bush) and a Republican controlled Congress (6 years) who gave us record deficits. And that was not during a recession when economists agree that Govt needs to spend when the private sector has shut down.

S&L have you checked out Arizona budget problems lately? Republican controlled state i believe. Even has Mr. McCain as a Senator. Remember that guy who was going to hire Phil Gramm as his Treasury Security. Remember him? Know anything about him? Study hard before you spout. You didnt even know Republicans controlled the Congress for 6 years under Bush (where i am from thats kind of BASIC information. lol) Phil Gramm is the guy partly responsible for proposing and helping to pass legislation that gave us this deep deep recession we are in.

First, it was just an observation and a valid one at that. CA, NY and IL are "blue". I'm not saying blue is bad. I live in a blue state, and a blue city. If you read any of the dialog between Candleman and I, you would know this. But instead, you go on your partisian diatribe - republican = destroyer / democrat = creator. You exemplify exactly what is wrong with our political system.

Again, the reason for this recession is not Phil Gramm. The reason we are in this recession is that our government artificially pumped up real estate. You can rail on Wall Street all you want. They didn't encourage bad loans; they were enabled to make them by our government. Since you don't read my links, here's something to think about.

"The Federal National Mortgage Association, colloquially known as Fannie Mae, was established in 1938 after the Great Depression to create a liquid secondary mortgage market and thereby free the loan originators to originate more loans, primarily by buying Federal Housing Administration (FHA) insured mortgages"

So the banks did what the government allowed them to do. Surprisingly, or maybe not, the new financial reform bill seems to forget about Fannie Mae. By the way, this new financial reform bill will create much more government that you and I have to pay for, and further reducing the effectiveness of each tax dollar collected. It should be obvious when you have 2300 pages of legislation.

[SiriuslyLong]

I've just come down to your level.

"....The Times also reported Democratic opposition to Bush's plan: "These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis," said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee..."

Nice call there Barney.

Hmmmm, maybe the reason for the recession is Barney Frank???

[Havakasha]

I would love to hear Barney's response. On the face of it he was wildly off.
Is it possible that there were not the problems then that there are today because of the entire financial meltdown? It is also possible they have been horribly mismanaged. I dont have a problem admitting that if its true.
You need to own up to all the things you refuse to acknowledge about how badly our free market system has operated of late. Of course you wont because its absolutely perfect. lol.

[SiriuslyLong]

I would love to hear Barney's response. On the face of it he was wildly off.
Is it possible that there were not the problems then that there are today because of the entire financial meltdown? It is also possible they have been horribly mismanaged. I dont have a problem admitting that if its true.
You need to own up to all the things you refuse to acknowledge about how badly our free market system has operated of late. Of course you wont because its absolutely perfect. lol.

Not so fast my friend. I have complained in these forums about how our government allowed a wholesale sell out for foriegn manufacturing. That is criticism of our free market system. Not only do we lose those jobs, but we lose experience and know how. I was talking with one guy who candidly acknowledged that cell phone batteries will never be made in America as we simply don't have the know how - in a make or buy scenario, buy wins.

[Havakasha]

S&L you chose to single out three states and ignore all the others that are having immense problems. ARIZONA ring a bell? All i did was point out the obviousness of your bias. You ignored the fact that New York despite being blue had a Republican Governor for 12 years. If you want to blame Obama (and by the way Obama is quite good at accepting responnsibility for problems. And if i say Bush wasnt its just a fact. Sorry if you see it simply as attacking Republicans.)as the executive of this country then you should be willing to say that the executives of states like Pataki, and Schwarznegger etc bear AT LEAST SOME RESPONSIBILITY for the problems of their states. I dont think that is an outrageous proposition though you seemed to guffaw at the mere suggestion that the problems were caused by many actors and not all of them were Democrats.

"the reason for the recession is that the govt artificially pumped up the real estate market". So you think thats the entire reason huh. It had nothing to do with the derivatives market and banks? it had nothing to do with the private sector acting irresponsible when it came to the real estate market as well? Phil Gramm's legislation was another piece of the puzzle. It had nothing to do with the Federal Reserve policy (which is supposed to operate independently of politics)? Remember Alan Greenspan (Republcan. There i go again. lol) held down interest rates to very low levels thereby helping to excacerbate the housing bubbles and let all kinds of private characters (banks, mortgage companies, people) exploit the situation. He also is famous for saying that there were no bubbles in the real estate and stock market. He also approved of the Bush tax cuts that helped to bring about large deficits in this country.
So pardon me if i get pissed when i hear you spout over and over again simplistic talking points about how THE WHOLE PROBLEM IS GOVT. NO its so much more complex than that. Its the whole system at play that has caused us to be in this mess. And sorry if i happen to think that Republicans are more at fault in the matter of our present economic situation and that they are playing politics (meaning they are not interested in passing anything. More interested in running out the clock till the 2010 elections) right now with our lives (unemployment benefits, energy legislation etc. as Obama at least tries to get things done. Sometimes i really wish we had a parliamentary system so the party in power could actually enact what they ran on without a 60 vote majority. At least then we might now who is at fault. On second thought everyone would still be blaming the other party no matter what. Oh well i guess all governmental systems and its people are falible. Oh my god what a revelation

[Havakasha]

Not so fast my friend. I have complained in these forums about how our government allowed a wholesale sell out for foriegn manufacturing. That is criticism of our free market system. Not only do we lose those jobs, but we lose experience and know how. I was talking with one guy who candidly acknowledged that cell phone batteries will never be made in America as we simply don't have the know how - in a make or buy scenario, buy wins.

Its a criticism of the system but once again its Govt in the lead. You got govt on the BRAIN.
But i do want to get this clear. Are you acknowledging that the free market system with all the players involved, govt, private companies and private citizens all play a part in the problems we have? If we can agree on that then oh boy have we made progress!

[SiriuslyLong]

S&L you chose to single out three states and ignore all the others that are having immense problems. ARIZONA ring a bell? All i did was point out the obviousness of your bias. You ignored the fact that New York despite being blue had a Republican Governor for 12 years. If you want to blame Obama (and by the way Obama is quite good at accepting responnsibility for problems. And if i say Bush wasnt its just a fact. Sorry if you see it simply as attacking Republicans.)as the executive of this country then you should be willing to say that the executives of states like Pataki, and Schwarznegger etc bear AT LEAST SOME RESPONSIBILITY for the problems of their states. I dont think that is an outrageous proposition though you seemed to guffaw at the mere suggestion that the problems were caused by many actors and not all of them were Democrats.

"the reason for the recession is that the govt artificially pumped up the real estate market". So you think thats the entire reason huh. It had nothing to do with the derivatives market and banks? it had nothing to do with the private sector acting irresponsible when it came to the real estate market as well? Phil Gramm's legislation was another piece of the puzzle. It had nothing to do with the Federal Reserve policy (which is supposed to operate independently of politics)? Remember Alan Greenspan (Republcan. There i go again. lol) held down interest rates to very low levels thereby helping to excacerbate the housing bubbles and let all kinds of private characters (banks, mortgage companies, people) exploit the situation. He also is famous for saying that there were no bubbles in the real estate and stock market. He also approved of the Bush tax cuts that helped to bring about large deficits in this country.
So pardon me if i get pissed when i hear you spout over and over again simplistic talking points about how THE WHOLE PROBLEM IS GOVT. NO its so much more complex than that. Its the whole system at play that has caused us to be in this mess. And sorry if i happen to think that Republicans are more at fault in the matter of our present economic situation and that they are playing politics (meaning they are not interested in passing anything. More interested in running out the clock till the 2010 elections) right now with our lives (unemployment benefits, energy legislation etc. as Obama at least tries to get things done. Sometimes i really wish we had a parliamentary system so the party in power could actually enact what they ran on without a 60 vote majority. At least then we might now who is at fault. On second thought everyone would still be blaming the other party no matter what. Oh well i guess all governmental systems and its people are falible. Oh my god what a revelation

A couple points.

1.) Obama getting things done? I take issue with that. He's getting legislation passed, yes. But what is also happening is that he is creating a larger government that is far more reaching than it was before his arrival. Here's something I'd like to understand better. It was said that 30 MM Americans did have health insurance, correct? So that's 10% of the US population, correct? Why must the legislation effect 100% of the American people? It doesn't make sense. Manage the exception and leave me the F alone.

2.) The derivatives where from bad mortgages. Get it?

3.) Assignable cause. It is a technique used in quality systems. What is the assignable cause of the recession. IMO it goes back to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

[Havakasha]

I love your blanket wholesale rejection of the financial reform bill without acknowledging the IMMENSE problems that Govt (in my opiinion Republicans who always oppose regulation) opinion allowed to happen and which businessess expoloited to the hilt.
And whats your obsession with the number of pages in a bill? Its something i never heard before until the Republicans started doing it in the last 2 years.
Its an OBVIOUS Republican talking point (if you dont believe me i will be happy to provide you with the research) Its plain silly and utterly meaningless. When you say shit like that i am sorry it just brings down my estimation of your intellect. Stop that crap. Please?

Can you name all the number of pages in all the bills for the past half century?
Did anyone ever make that the issue before now? What is wrong with people? Have they been struck by lightening that just makes them plain DUMB.

I quess i made my point on page numbers huh? lol