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Thread: Governments Moving to Cut Spending, In Echo of the 1930's

  1. #11
    SiriuslyLong is offline
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    Obama was forced to address immegration due to Arizona. Don't deny it.

    I don't hate Obama. I actually had hope, and got my balls busted by my republican friends. But what he is doing is very disappointing - making government bigger and more far reaching. The government doesn't have to actually solve all our problems. All our government need do is to simply provide a framework for our economy and society to work efficiently. 2300 page bills that no one knows what the hell is in them? C'mon.

    BTW, I voted for Bob Barr, the libertarian candidate. Would have voted for McCain, but Palin was an absolute "no go". I could not in my right mind contribute to her being next in line to lead our country. No flippen way.

    Here, in case you missed it the first time.

    http://siriusbuzz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4013

    I don't believe one minute that republicans are sitting on their hands. Obama is so far left it is almost impossible to agree with any of his policy. He's politics just like the republicans. If he integrates any of their ideas, his party will alienate him. It works both ways.

    My point of view is not that of a republican; it's simply about economics and the role of government. I am a registered non party affiliate. You are a democrat. You are partial. You are biased. It is impossiblet to look at Obama critically. Well maybe you can. Maybe Obama is not left enough for you LOL.

    Anyway, it's all Bush's fault. I love Fox News. "Obama demonized oil, wall st, insurance.... even lost Immelt.."

  2. #12
    Havakasha is offline
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    "Obama was forced to address Immigration". Wrong.
    Actually it was one of his main campaign pledges, but then you dont seem to follow things very closely. Do you remember something called the Hispanic population. A large Democratic constituency. Google how they have been pushing WAY before Arizona to have immigration reform put on the front burner.
    If you dont hate Obama, i have seen nothing to indicate any even handedness of evaluatioin. Your diatribes read like straight from John and Fox news's playbook. To give Obama an "F" on bipartisanship when it is so clearly the Republicans who have voted Zilch on major legislation out of an obvious political strategy is to be beyond absurd. I know you always put down looking
    back in history but why dont you check how legislation is normally voted on even in Bush's era.
    If you dont believe for one minute that Republicans are sitting on their hands then are clearly not impressed by facts. Sorry but Obama in case you havent noticed has been playing things to the center left on most issues. If you read the huffingtonpost or dailykos or even just followed the news you would understand that the left is very disappointed in Obama and critiques him constantly. This idea that Obama is "far left" is patently absurd that i dont even know what planet you live on. ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS. Again just read what the moderate and far left says. No other proof needed.

  3. #13
    SiriuslyLong is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havakasha View Post
    "Obama was forced to address Immigration". Wrong.
    Actually it was one of his main campaign pledges, but then you dont seem to follow things very closely. Do you remember something called the Hispanic population. A large Democratic constituency. Google how they have been pushing WAY before Arizona to have immigration reform put on the front burner.
    If you dont hate Obama, i have seen nothing to indicate any even handedness of evaluatioin. Your diatribes read like straight from John and Fox news's playbook. To give Obama an "F" on bipartisanship when it is so clearly the Republicans who have voted Zilch on major legislation out of an obvious political strategy is to be beyond absurd. I know you always put down looking
    back in history but why dont you check how legislation is normally voted on even in Bush's era.
    If you dont believe for one minute that Republicans are sitting on their hands then are clearly not impressed by facts. Sorry but Obama in case you havent noticed has been playing things to the center left on most issues. If you read the huffingtonpost or dailykos or even just followed the news you would understand that the left is very disappointed in Obama and critiques him constantly. This idea that Obama is "far left" is patently absurd that i dont even know what planet you live on. ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS. Again just read what the moderate and far left says. No other proof needed.
    Pure unalterated BIAS. Democrat = good, Republican = bad. What amazes me most is that you believe that it only works one way; nope, democrats are NOT politicians, and they always cooperate with the republicans.

    Since you are an expert, how much left of the left is there? Really?

    By the way, -125,000 jobs for $800 Billion. Get your head around this - the American economy is centered about businesses, not the federal government. If you disagree with that, maybe, just maybe John had you pegged correctly

  4. #14
    Havakasha is offline
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    Look who is talking about pure unadulterated biaa. For starters S&L gives Obama an "F" for bipartisanship and claims he really had hopes for Obama.
    LMFAO.

    This is from yesterday.
    "President Obama discussed immigration reform during his meeting Tuesday with Senate Republicans on Capitol Hil. Republicans have deemed it politcally beneficial to block the Democrats' initiatives. It doesnt matter as the HIll reported, Obama told them he'd be 'willing to meet the halfway or 75 percent of the way on some of the big issues."

    Any objective reading would give Republicans an "F" on bipartisanship but S&L has it reversed. I wonder where he gets his information from?

    That is an ABSOLUTE lie that we got 125,00O jobs for 800 billion. That is really pretty shameful S&L. Its well known that the CBO (remember that objective body that you and all Republicans quote on deficits when it suites you and then disparage when it doesnt?) The CBO says it has brought us 2 to 3 million jobs and saved us from 11 % unemployment.
    That is pure unadulterated bullcrap that you are spouting and its unbelievable after all our discussions that you would fall back on blatant lies.
    The US economy is centered around private business but anyone knows that in times of Depressions and or deep recessions that govt must take up the slack. Conservative and progressive economist both agree. S&L and John dont. You seem to have more and more in common with John and that is particularly scary. He is a blatant liar and rigid ideoogue.

    You havent been reading Dailykos and Huffingtonpost if you think people like "us" only think Republicans mess things up. Pure smokescreen on your part to suggest what my beliefs are despite what i have said repeatedly. Please find a Republcian source (Fox news?) that criticizes
    the Republican leadership. It doesnt exist.
    Last edited by Havakasha; 07-04-2010 at 11:46 AM.

  5. #15
    Havakasha is offline
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    "The CBO now estimates that the stimulus put as many as 2.8 million people to work in the first three months of this year -- and raised GDP by as much as 4.2%.

    The CBO estimates that the stimulus put 1.2 million to 2.8 million to work in the first quarter, and boosted GDP between 1.7% and 4.2%.

    Thanks to the stimulus, the unemployment rate was lowered by between .7% and 1.5% in the first quarter, the CBO estimates."

    S&L now contends he knows more about economics than the CBO. Classic.

  6. #16
    SiriuslyLong is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havakasha View Post
    "The CBO now estimates that the stimulus put as many as 2.8 million people to work in the first three months of this year -- and raised GDP by as much as 4.2%.

    The CBO estimates that the stimulus put 1.2 million to 2.8 million to work in the first quarter, and boosted GDP between 1.7% and 4.2%.

    Thanks to the stimulus, the unemployment rate was lowered by between .7% and 1.5% in the first quarter, the CBO estimates."

    S&L now contends he knows more about economics than the CBO. Classic.
    Well the CBO better get with the folks who issue the jobs report because on is on Venus and the other Mars.

    And don't talk about unemployment as the disenfranchized have improved that number.

  7. #17
    SiriuslyLong is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havakasha View Post
    Look who is talking about pure unadulterated biaa. For starters S&L gives Obama an "F" for bipartisanship and claims he really had hopes for Obama.
    LMFAO.

    This is from yesterday.
    "President Obama discussed immigration reform during his meeting Tuesday with Senate Republicans on Capitol Hil. Republicans have deemed it politcally beneficial to block the Democrats' initiatives. It doesnt matter as the HIll reported, Obama told them he'd be 'willing to meet the halfway or 75 percent of the way on some of the big issues."

    Any objective reading would give Republicans an "F" on bipartisanship but S&L has it reversed. I wonder where he gets his information from?

    That is an ABSOLUTE lie that we got 125,00O jobs for 800 billion. That is really pretty shameful S&L. Its well known that the CBO (remember that objective body that you and all Republicans quote on deficits when it suites you and then disparage when it doesnt?) The CBO says it has brought us 2 to 3 million jobs and saved us from 11 % unemployment.
    That is pure unadulterated bullcrap that you are spouting and its unbelievable after all our discussions that you would fall back on blatant lies.
    The US economy is centered around private business but anyone knows that in times of Depressions and or deep recessions that govt must take up the slack. Conservative and progressive economist both agree. S&L and John dont. You seem to have more and more in common with John and that is particularly scary. He is a blatant liar and rigid ideoogue.

    You havent been reading Dailykos and Huffingtonpost if you think people like "us" only think Republicans mess things up. Pure smokescreen on your part to suggest what my beliefs are despite what i have said repeatedly. Please find a Republcian source (Fox news?) that criticizes
    the Republican leadership. It doesnt exist.
    Feel free to LYFAO about Obama dissappointing me. I wish I could find the humor. Please, do not argue that democrats are less political than republicans. If you do, simply preface what that prior to trying to make your point. It will save a lot of effort.

    I'm talking about monthly numbers. The May jobs report cited a net loss of 125,000 due to Census workers moving on. An 85,000 gain for the private sector was cited, but from what I understand, that is about half of what we need.

    I'm glad you agree about the US economy being centered about business. You acknowledge so little that sometimes I think you don't even try to understand my point - instead favoring YOUR favorite talking points.

    Had a nice 4th so far. Ran a 5k with my kids this AM. My older one was 3rd for her age group and got her name called out to come up for her metal. That was cool.

  8. #18
    Havakasha is offline
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    You keep putting words in my mouth. When did i ever say Democrats were less political than Republicans. Politics is a seriously competetive business You got to stop setting up straw dogs. You have done this several times of late and
    i dont quite understand it.
    You said -125,000 for 800 billion That was just pure crap. You got to get clearer about what you are talking about otherwise it comes across as a blatant lie.The fact remains if there had been no stimulus or even half that stimulus the economists seem convinced we would be in much more trouble.
    You can disbelieve that but its something most experts believe.
    i have said in the past that i come from a business family so this idea that you put forward that somehow i dont understand business or dont believe in it as a central component of our economy is made up nonsense. The only argument i make is that there is a necessary balance between govt and business and when business and consumers arent doing well then govt has to step up . You on the other hand seem to completely ignore the fact that govt plays a significant role in our economy.

    Check out this next article on subsidies to Oil companies just as an example of how govt helps out some of our biggest industries. No one on the right ever acknowledges it and complains vociferously when govt helps new industries such as solar, wind, hybrid cars etc.

    P.S. Glad you had a nice 4th running with your kids. I'm going on a long bike ride in a little while myself. Otherwise I spent the day at Coney island doing some filmmaking. Hot as hell. Looks like the rest of the week is going to be pretty brutal. Stay cool and gather some facts not some Fox tainted data please.
    Last edited by Havakasha; 07-04-2010 at 05:42 PM.

  9. #19

  10. #20
    Havakasha is offline
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    Subsidies

    Joe Raedle/Getty Images


    When the Deepwater Horizon drilling platform set off the worst oil spill at sea in American history, it was flying the flag of the Marshall Islands. Registering there allowed the rig’s owner to significantly reduce its American taxes.The owner, Transocean, moved its corporate headquarters from Houston to the Cayman Islands in 1999 and then to Switzerland in 2008, maneuvers that also helped it avoid taxes.

    At the same time, BP was reaping sizable tax benefits from leasing the rig. According to a letter sent in June to the Senate Finance Committee, the company used a tax break for the oil industry to write off 70 percent of the rent for Deepwater Horizon — a deduction of more than $225,000 a day since the lease began.

    With federal officials now considering a new tax on petroleum production to pay for the cleanup, the industry is fighting the measure, warning that it will lead to job losses and higher gasoline prices, as well as an increased dependence on foreign oil.

    But an examination of the American tax code indicates that oil production is among the most heavily subsidized businesses, with tax breaks available at virtually every stage of the exploration and extraction process.

    According to the most recent study by the Congressional Budget Office, released in 2005, capital investments like oil field leases and drilling equipment are taxed at an effective rate of 9 percent, significantly lower than the overall rate of 25 percent for businesses in general and lower than virtually any other industry.

    And for many small and midsize oil companies, the tax on capital investments is so low that it is more than eliminated by var-ious credits. These companies’ returns on those investments are often higher after taxes than before.

    “The flow of revenues to oil companies is like the gusher at the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico: heavy and constant,” said Senator Robert Menendez, Democrat of New Jersey, who has worked alongside the Obama administration on a bill that would cut $20 billion in oil industry tax breaks over the next decade. “There is no reason for these corporations to shortchange the American taxpayer.”

    Oil industry officials say that the tax breaks, which average about $4 billion a year according to various government reports, are a bargain for taxpayers. By helping producers weather market fluctuations and invest in technology, tax incentives are supporting an industry that the officials say provides 9.2 million jobs.

    The American Petroleum Institute, an industry advocacy group, argues that even with subsidies, oil producers paid or incurred $280 billion in American income taxes from 2006 to 2008, and pay a higher percentage of their earnings in taxes than most other American corporations.

    As oil continues to spread across the Gulf of Mexico, however, the industry is being forced to defend tax breaks that some say are being abused or are outdated.

    The Senate Finance Committee on Wednesday announced that it was investigating whether Transocean had exploited tax laws by moving overseas to avoid paying taxes in the United States. Efforts to curtail the tax breaks are likely to face fierce opposition in Congress; the oil and natural gas industry has spent $340 million on lobbyists since 2008, according to the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics, which monitors political spending.

    Jack N. Gerard, president of the American Petroleum Institute, warns that any cut in subsidies will cost jobs.

    “These companies evaluate costs, risks and opportunities across the globe,” he said. “So if the U.S. makes changes in the tax code that discourage drilling in gulf waters, they will go elsewhere and take their jobs with them.”

    But some government watchdog groups say that only the industry’s political muscle is preserving the tax breaks. An economist for the Treasury Department said in 2009 that a study had found that oil prices and potential profits were so high that eliminating the subsidies would decrease American output by less than half of one percent.

    “We’re giving tax breaks to highly profitable companies to do what they would be doing anyway,” said Sima J. Gandhi, a policy analyst at the Center for American Progress, a liberal research organization. “That’s not an incentive; that’s a giveaway.”

    Some of the tax breaks date back nearly a century, when they were intended to encourage exploration in an era of rudimentary technology, when costly investments frequently produced only dry holes. Because of one lingering provision from the Tariff Act of 1913, many small and midsize oil companies based in the United States can claim deductions for the lost value of tapped oil fields far beyond the amount the companies actually paid for the oil rights.

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