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  1. Big Ben is offline
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    04-21-2010, 02:36 PM #91
    Atypical...holly post bat man!

    Easy read though.

    "What are the odds?" "One in a thousand?" "More like one in a million!" "So your saying there is a chance!" Dumb and Dumber quote, Lloyd. I think.

    I agree with most of what your saying and my readers digest of it all is, were f---ed.

    I must defend both Bush and Obama both were handed a shit burger and said eat up!

    Markets are red and fading...nanny nanny pooh pooh...told you so. Rally is over, next stop, lower.

    C, BAC, GOOG, and even the might Apple is losing some gains, I love it. I can't wait for the exit to shrink, its coming soon! I can feel it coming in the air tonight!

    Chicken Little Ben

  2. john is offline
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    04-21-2010, 02:38 PM #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Havakasha View Post
    Wrong as usual! the Govt DID have to get involved if you believe what most believe. Too bad we cant set up alternative universes to prove my points.
    Were you part of the Bush economic team that brought us the 2nd worst recession in our history?
    You dumb twit, just look around, there are examples EVERYWHERE. I have news for you KMART went bankrupt twice before its last time and even NOW there is still a KMART.

  3. Havakasha is offline
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    04-21-2010, 02:40 PM #93
    All you have to ask is who caused the recession we are just digging our way out of. We all know it occurred under Bush/Cheney.
    All you have to ask yourselves is why did the Republicans support all the bills that led to the huge deficit and this recession.
    All you have to ask yourselves is why did the middle class stand in place for the past 8 years when it came to earning power?

    You cant run away from what happened (huge deficits and wicked recession) and didnt (solved none of our structural economic problems) during the Bush administration.

    The facts sometimes are very painful especially if you call everyone Socialist, Communist , dumbass, twit if you disagree with them.
    Last edited by Havakasha; 04-21-2010 at 02:47 PM.

  4. SiriuslyLong is offline
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    04-21-2010, 02:40 PM #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Ben View Post
    Atypical...holly post bat man!

    C, BAC, GOOG, and even the might Apple is losing some gains, I love it. I can't wait for the exit to shrink, its coming soon! I can feel it coming in the air tonight!

    Chicken Little Ben
    You're a sick man Big Ben. LOL.

  5. Havakasha is offline
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    04-21-2010, 02:45 PM #95
    Quote Originally Posted by SiriuslyLong View Post
    My problem is Obama's policies. He's looking to hand out everything, and from my perspective, he's getting it from me - not the rich, not the irresponsbile, but from guy who takes care of his kids, helps them with their homework, pays his bills on time.......

    I'll go back to where I began. Had my taxes been eliminated for say one year, I could have purchased needed things, and increased my savings. I'm not going back to Bush; there's enough $hit going on right now. I'm sure the Treasury held another auction today -- for example.
    Cant agree. He is doing what all the major economists suggested. Only after you get back on track from the Bush recession can you then tackle the deficit.
    The truth is that the US needs a lot of structural changes that arent going to happen overnight. If Obama is in office for 8 years and has the power with the Congress to pass legislation and put his stamp on the economy; at that point we can say whether or not his policies are working. Im sorry you are feeling the pinch but you got to remember how we got here.

  6. Havakasha is offline
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    04-21-2010, 02:49 PM #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Atypical View Post
    The drumbeat about deficits has reached deafening levels. The president warns about "out of control" spending. Fed Chair Ben Bernanke calls for bringing deficits down. The opinion pages bristle with rants about the U.S. turning into Greece, headed to default. Next week, the first session of the president's "National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform" will convene. The next day, shamelessly, the two co-chairs and the staff director (all committed deficit hawks) will grace a forum sponsored by the Peterson Foundation, established by Wall Street billionaire Pete Peterson largely to gin up hysteria about America's long term deficits.

    Premature Ejaculation

    This potion is being served long before its time. Sure, deficits are big and the projections are scary. But the economy is struggling to get out of a big hole. Unemployment is still near 10%. Foreclosures are still rising. Banks aren't lending; businesses aren't hiring. Deficit spending is critical to what little growth we've seen.

    The president and the Congress should be focused on jobs, not deficits. Ironically, when pushed, most of the purveyors of the hysteria agree. Bernanke admits we shouldn't roll back the spending too soon, and is keeping interest rates (for the banks) near zero. David Walker, head of the Peterson Foundation, agrees deficits might be larger in the short run to create jobs and help get the economy going. But these cautions can't be heard amid the clamor about deficits.

    The Elite's Big Fix

    Consider this another example of Naomi Klein's "shock doctrine." Not wanting to let the crisis go to waste, an elite consensus is congealing on how to bring the deficits down.

    Call it the big fix. "Everything is on the table," we're told. That's code for a trade-off. Republicans accept tax increases; Democrats accept spending cuts.

    But the fix is in the details. On the revenue side, the favored vehicle is a value added tax (VAT). The VAT is essentially a hidden sales tax, levied at each stage of a product's production. Conservatives, who, unlike Dick Cheney, believe deficits matter, accept it because it is regressive, taxing spending, not investment or wealth. Liberals accept it because it is hidden, and could generate a lot of revenue.

    The debate has already begun around the VAT. John McCain, in his new guise as conservative partisan, brought a resolution to the Senate denouncing the VAT as a "massive tax increase that will cripple families on fixed income." Eighty-five Senators voted for the non-binding resolution, including all six members of the President's Commission. The administration has since denied that it has any designs on a VAT. But these protestations are simply reflections on how serious the move towards a VAT has become.

    On the spending side, cuts in Social Security, Medicare and domestic spending are targeted. The Republican co-chair of the President's Commission, former Senator Alan Simpson is an infamous scourge of Social Security. The Democratic co-chair Erskine Bowles favored the Clinton effort to privatize it. The deal is foreshadowed by the president's budget which calls for a three year freeze on domestic discretionary spending, and "pay-go" limits on entitlements, insisting that any increase in entitlements be paid for.

    All this is wrapped in gauzy poll designed packaging. A VAT will sold as a corporate tax reform. Entitlements, we're told, must be brought under control as the boomers age. Domestic spending is rife with waste, fraud and abuse.

    Stuff and Nonsense

    There's only one problem with this consensus -- it is both wrong-headed and dangerous. It ignores how we got into this hole, is blind to the challenges the country faces, and offends the values that made this country great. Here's a little common sense:

    1. Ignore False Prophets

    As Dean Baker has pointed out, the elite deficit agenda is being peddled by the same folks that profited from the bubble bust economy that drove us over the cliff. Wall Street moguls Pete Peterson and Robert Rubin, leaders of the effort, have preached against deficits for years, arguing that they would eventually lead to recession. They never uttered a word about the housing bubble, the financial casino, the excesses and frauds of Wall Street that actually blew up the economy. They made a lot of money along the way. But their profits don't make them sound prophets.

    2. Get the Question Right First

    The question isn't how we raise taxes, cut spending and balance the budget. The question is how we return to an economy of full employment with a broad and prosperous middle class. If we create a prosperous and growing economy, wages will go up, revenues will go up, spending on unemployment and misery will go down, and budgets will come into greater balance. Growth is an essential precondition to sound finances. We last had debt of this size relative to the economy at the end of World War II. We invested in the GI Bill and educated a generation. We built the interstate highways. We transferred war industries to private companies. We launched the Marshall Plan, and created markets for products in Europe. And we grew our way out of the debt burdens over time, as we built the middle class society that was America's pride.

    3. Wrong diagnosis, wrong remedy

    To understand what remedy is, you've got to have a clear view of what the problems are. The irony of the elite consensus is that in every particular, it ignores the problems we face, and calls for remedies that would make things worse.

    Consider:

    We don't have an "entitlements problem." Social Security is in surplus and, if the economy grows and workers capture a fair share of the productivity they help generate, Social Security will be in surplus as far as the eye can see.

    We also don't have a "Medicare problem." We have a broken health care system. The source of virtually the entire long term projected deficits comes from soaring health care costs. We're spending 50% more than other industrial countries per capita and getting worse results in terms of good health. The new health care reform does offer some hope of reducing the rate of cost increase. A single payer system -- extending Medicare to all - would do far more. But the problem isn't entitlements or greedy geezers, but a broken health care system.. Cutting Medicare and Social Security won't solve that problem.

    Consider:

    We now suffer Gilded Age inequality. The wealthiest 1% of Americans not only pockets 21% percent of the national income; they hold more than one-third of the privately held wealth. Plus they've enjoyed the largest tax cuts over the last decades. IRS figures show that the wealthiest 400 Americans -- averaging over $263 million in income in 2006 -- now pay taxes at a rate (17%) lower than their chauffeurs.

    Yet the elite consensus is pushing a VAT that will burden the working and middle class far more than the wealthy. Instead we should be talking about increasing top end tax rates, taxing unearned income at the same rate as earned income (last done when Reagan was president), and cracking down on tax avoidance schemes, levying a speculation tax on short-term financial speculation, reviving the estate tax. And of course, we need to set a "price on carbon," a regressive tax no doubt, but one that at least is focused on taxing spending on what we need to reduce.

    Consider:

    On the spending side, we spend almost as much on the military as the rest of the world combined. We spend more to defend South Korea than the South Koreans do. We police the world and maintain an empire over some 750 bases. And, the military is by far the largest cesspool of waste, fraud and abuse in government. The Defense Department's books are in such disarray that none of the services can be audited, much less pass an audit.

    At the same time, we have a debilitating domestic public investment deficit that is rapidly getting worse. As the president has said, we need to build a new foundation for our economy. And that requires investing in education and training so our children get the best education in the world; investing in research and development so we remain on the cutting edge of invention and science; building a 21st Century infrastructure - from a smart electric grid, to fast trains, cutting edge broadband, and renewable energy. And we've got to rebuild a basic infrastructure - from schools to sewers to bridges - that is aged and literally falling apart. Sure, if the Congress is ready to take on entrenched interests, we can cut a lot of fat out of domestic spending (consider subsidies for Big Oil, Big Agra, and Big Pharma for starters), but in the end we should be spending more, not less on vital domestic investments.

    So it makes no sense at all to focus on domestic spending cuts, and leave the military off the table.

    Beware Bipartisan Blight

    Most Americans want the two parties to work together to solve problems. But when the parties come together to do something big, Americans should be particularly vigilant. Too often, that reflects a strong elite consensus, willing and able to purchase support on both sides of the aisle.

    The elite consensus described above already has a lot of momentum and money behind it. You'll see publicists from AEI on the corporate right joining those from the Center for American Progress, on the center-left. Clinton's former Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin joining Nixon's former Commerce Secretary Pete Peterson. Editorial boards will echo established authority.
    Thanks for posting that. Only one thing. Its too long for those who shout Socialist, Communist, dumbass, twit at every opportunity. Maybe you can summarize it.
    Last edited by Havakasha; 04-21-2010 at 02:57 PM.

  7. john is offline
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    04-21-2010, 03:04 PM #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Havakasha View Post
    This is all because of the Bush recession and the fact that they didnt fix ANY of the structural problems in our economy.
    i love how you are blaming Obama for all this. Been in office for a little over a year. Handed the 2nd worst recession in our history. Something tells me you got a little bias. Did you scream and kick when Bush brought you record deficits and a major recession. The middle class stood in place for those 8 years. The facts of the present middle class tax cuts are just that. The rich got plenty of tax cuts and favors in the previous 8 years which helped to bring us our present deficits. I dont have a problem paying my fair share and neither should you.

    Facts are facts and vote of record are votes of record.


    Fact: 2001 the Bush administration pushed for regulation of Fanny and Freddy that passed in committee on a partison vote (ALL the democrats voted against it and ALL the republicans voted for it) It did not get a vote in the senate yet. It stayed in the committee because the republicans could not get 60 votes to pass it in the senate.

    Fact: 2003 Once again the bush administration was still pushing to regulate Fanny and Freddy this time in the house committee this is one of the famous videos that shows all the democrats voting AGAINST it and ALL the republicans voting FOR it.

    Fact: 2006 Bill finally gets to the floor. Republicans vote FOR it and the democrats voted AGAINST IT. Ho and guess what, Obama was one of the democrats that voted to filibuster the very same bill he latter and finally voted for which passed in 2008.

    The importance of those facts is that most of the debt (bad mortgages) that was incured by Fanny and Freddy was done in the years after 2001 and almost half was after 2003.

  8. SiriuslyLong is offline
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    04-21-2010, 03:09 PM #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Havakasha View Post
    Im sorry you are feeling the pinch
    The pinch is Obama picking my pocket to redistribute the wealth lol. We won't have to worry about Obama having 8 years; he's done at 4. I really had hope for bipartisan leadership, but with reduced checks and balances in congress he's simply ram - rodding his agenda through, and that's pissing off / galvanizing a lot of people - me too (card carrying non party affiliate).

    Let's take health care for example. Problem: 30,000,000 American are uninsured. Problem: the economy needs stimulus. Problem: no jobs. OK, how about this as a solution - have the government "spend" on building 100 new federal health centers stategically located in areas that need them most. At least he'd be spending on useful assets that support his agenda. These health centers would need to be filled with MRI's, beds, labs, lights, X ray machines...... People would need to design them, build them and the centers would need to be staffed. I would agree on a tax to pay for that.

    Instead, he wants to "punish" the greedy companies for making money (which is the reason for an enterprise). As an owner of AT&T, Obama has personally picked my pocket again.

  9. john is offline
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    04-21-2010, 03:17 PM #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Havakasha View Post
    Cant agree. He is doing what all the major economists suggested. Only after you get back on track from the Bush recession can you then tackle the deficit.
    The truth is that the US needs a lot of structural changes that arent going to happen overnight. If Obama is in office for 8 years and has the power with the Congress to pass legislation and put his stamp on the economy; at that point we can say whether or not his policies are working. Im sorry you are feeling the pinch but you got to remember how we got here.

    Hummm, who was it that said unemployment would not get above 8% if we passed the DEMOCRATS STIMULAS.

    Hummm, Ho thats right, thats is just what we all do to get out of debt SPEND A HELL OF ALOT MORE. "Lets spend our way out of debt", just read that and then ask yourselves if that sounds sane.


    Yea, 8 years of Obama. people are on to his ass and he will be out in 4. What did I tell you almost a year ago. Ho there is my ESP kicking in again, I told you watch not only will the republicans take back congress but the people running and will win, will be running on a more conservative platform. I must be Nostradamus because I told you this about a year ago, LMAO.

  10. john is offline
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    04-21-2010, 03:23 PM #100
    Quote Originally Posted by SiriuslyLong View Post
    The pinch is Obama picking my pocket to redistribute the wealth lol. We won't have to worry about Obama having 8 years; he's done at 4. I really had hope for bipartisan leadership, but with reduced checks and balances in congress he's simply ram - rodding his agenda through, and that's pissing off / galvanizing a lot of people - me too (card carrying non party affiliate).

    Let's take health care for example. Problem: 30,000,000 American are uninsured. Problem: the economy needs stimulus. Problem: no jobs. OK, how about this as a solution - have the government "spend" on building 100 new federal health centers stategically located in areas that need them most. At least he'd be spending on useful assets that support his agenda. These health centers would need to be filled with MRI's, beds, labs, lights, X ray machines...... People would need to design them, build them and the centers would need to be staffed. I would agree on a tax to pay for that.

    Instead, he wants to "punish" the greedy companies for making money (which is the reason for an enterprise). As an owner of AT&T, Obama has personally picked my pocket again.


    Just one correction it is not REALLY 30 million that want insurance but cant get it, it works out to be around 12 million, after you take out all the people that are able to get Medicade, SCHIP, Medicare, but for whatever reason dont have it. Then you take out the biggest chunk ILLEGALS and the people that CAN AFFORD it but dont want it, I guess they would rather drive a BMW.

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