Now that sounds like the guy I heard on your first post and I agreed with on a lot of your points . The second group of posts , not so much and this one now I agree again with most of what you say . Minus the torture , see I have read pretty much on the subject of torture since this all came to a head . And if it was actually an effective way to save or preserve American lives or any other lives for that matter I would be for it . But it is almost unanimously accepted that torture doesn't yield any reliable results and that isn't me , the liberals , the independents or the conservatives spouting off these are the experts and they are across the board and political lines in agreeance that the intelligence gleened from these methods is mostly worthless and unreliable .
Think about it if you were being tortured and were a terrorist and you knew where a bomb was that was about to go off soon and kill millions of the people that you were trained to kill . You would tell your tortures someplace else let them waste their time looking there while the bomb goes off and does what you wanted it to do . And if you then returned and killed him it really wouldn't matter to a terrorist because they are willing to die to kill their preceived enemies , are they not ? The other part is that while you are being tortured if you don't know what the torturers want to know or even if you do you will tell them anything you think they want to hear just to get them to stop . And there again you will be sending agents on wild goose chases wasting time and resources while endangering more lives .
See IMHO out eviling these people isn't the answer . That just makes us more like them . The only way out of this is going to be to show the majority of the Muslims . The non extremists that we are the sane ones and that those extremists are the ones that are spreading lies , death and misery among them and us . The weapons are to be used when we have the terrorists cornered like we did in the mountains of Afghanistan . Not killing 100 of thousands of innocent Iraqi's when we had to pull the weapons inspectors out of Iraq to do . We already had the experts there on the ground doing their job and we stopped them to bomb Saddam ? And they hadn't found anything then , the same thing we found since !
Just like when Bush went off on his ill advised adventures . No country or other leader could talk sense into him . The change has to come from US you and me , from within or it is just a temporary band aid that will fall off as soon as it gets wet . The same way with the Muslims . That old saying that we have to win the propaganda war and their hearts and minds that is what will bring peace and closure to this . Bombs,guns,death destruction and torture although at times necessary will not solve what Bush got us into now !
You said something about leveling Pakistan . And although I wouldn't go that far . I will tell you this . If Bush after he let Bin Laden escape into Pakistan would have taken the forces that he put into Iraq and invaded Pakistan for the sole purpose of bringing Bin Laden to justice or killing him I would have been 100% behind him . But invading Iraq and leaving Bin Laden reestablish himself and reconstitute Al Queda is absolute lunacy and I still can't believe that we the American public stood for it !
And you are correct that conservatives aren't the whole problem . The problem is that both conservatives and liberals drink from that same trough of corporate money . And this is where we the public get it up the poop shoot every time . Look at the two biggest money makers in the last 8 years . Defense and oil . Do you really think that it is a coincidence that Bush I made the majority of his billions in oil ? Or that him and James Baker the guy that brought the GOP together for Bush II's presidential run sit on the board of the Carlyle Group the biggest war profiteering corporation in the world ? Or that Hillary Clinton has taken more money from Washington lobbyists than any candidate including the Republicans ?
I am a sucker for a great orator like Obama . But when he has facts to back him up it is even more impressive in my book . When most supported going to war in Iraq he had the courage of his convictions to question the wisdom and motives ! And the biggest thing is Obama has raised more money than anyone else . But not one red cent was from a lobbyist . That means people like you and me are funding him . Maybe just maybe he will work for us instead of the defense contractors , the oil companies and the big pharmaceuticals .
Jason I Like to discuss politics . I would enjoy discussing things with you . But I don't see any reason we can't be civil to one another if we agree or we don't buddy ! We are never going to agree on everything , that is what makes this world go round . but I believe that from what you have written that we have a lot more in common than you might think !
Take care bro ,
Eduardo S Fernandez