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Thread: Tesla car

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by lloyd Handwerker View Post
    I posted a study earlier that shows the Prius saves you money in comparison
    to a similar car. You saw it and did NOTHING to refute it. Should i post it again?

    First of all I dont look into half of the crap you put up on the board. For the reason that it is proven to be crap. Just like the study you say you had. I just proved it to be crap once again. My links and figures are there for all to see, there is no way to take it any other way.


    The question is why would I buy a Prius when I could buy a Focus and save 6,000 dollars right from the start.

    There is no worry about buying a new bank of batteries.

    There is no worry about having to keep it for at least 15 years to be able to just start to break even (timeframe does not include the replacement cost of the bank of batteries).

    There is no worry about being able to sell it with the new buyer being concerned about the cost of having to buy a new bank of batteries. (It is like trying to sell a normal car, when everyone your trying to sell it to, knows it will need a new transmission in 2 years).


    I ask anyone here, who even keeps ALL the cars they bought for 15 plus years before you sell it or it is not worth repairing. I would be willing to bet that percentage is in the 1 to 3 range.



    This simple comparason is yet another perfect example of how you try to put up studies that can be manipulated.


    Finally the reason I wait sometimes to answer any of the questions in a debate I want to get into, is I am a good debater. I wait to give you enough rope to hang yourself before I will respond to things. Hence, why I answer each statement of every argument I am in, weather I disagree or I say I can agree. If you dont, as you have done, it is easy to get lost and have those things come back to bit you. Also not answering certian questions while in a ongoing debate makes you look like you dont have a logical answer or you know the other person is right and you just cant admit it. lloyd you do that all the time, most people here are not that dumb they can see right through it.


    repost;

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    I have to prove what a twit you are again. Here follow these 2 links for a comparison.


    http://www.toyota.com/prius-hybrid/?...3410_p40444336


    http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/focussedan/


    Now if you did that you will see that the Prius gets a average of 50 miles to the gallon and starts at a cost of 22,000 dollars.

    Next you will notice that the Focus get an average of 30 miles to the gallon and starts at a cost of 16,000 dollars.


    There is a total difference of 6,000 dollars between the two there is also a difference of about 20 miles between the two. The average person drives 12,000 miles a year.


    12,000 / 50 = 240 gallons for the year (Prius)

    12,000 / 30 = 400 gallons for the year (focus)


    Taking the gallons of each and multipling them by 3 dollars a gallon.


    240 gallons X 3 dollars = 720 dollars per year cost in fuel for the Prius.

    400 gallons X 3 dollars = 1200 dollars per year cost in fuel for the Focus.


    Then subtract the difference and you get the extra cost in fuel for the year.


    1200 - 720 = 480 extra dollars a year (in fuel cost) to drive the Focus.


    Now take the 6,000 dollars you will have to pay up front on the Prius and divide that by the 480 dollars and you will get the amount of years it will take to just break even.


    6,000 / 480 = 12.5 years to just break even on the Prius.


    I dont even think I have to bring up the cost of the battery pack and that it is supposed to last between 5 and 7 years.

    I dont even think I have to bring up the true cost of not having 6,000 dollars and what that would earn in a bank (after taking 480 dollars away every year, FOR THE NEXT 12.5 YEARS). Which would bring the time frame up to more like 15 years before you break even (once again that is without the extra cost of replacing the battery pack).

    I dont think I have to bring up the cost of the Prius if you just happen to get into an accident that totals the car before the 12.5 (plus the 2.5 years) is up.



    You asked for it, you idiot. There it is in simple terms so that even you can get it.

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  2. #12
    john is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by lloyd Handwerker View Post
    By the way Its a much more comprehensive study than your figures and takes into account many more things. When i am done with my work over the next
    2 days i will post it again for the ignorant putz.

    That maybe true and that is why it is easy to manipulate. I gave a simple comparason there is very little (if any) room to manipulate anything in there.

  3. #13
    lloyd Handwerker is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by john View Post
    That maybe true and that is why it is easy to manipulate. I gave a simple comparason there is very little (if any) room to manipulate anything in there.
    That is one way to look at it. LOL. Of course the other way to look at is it that a simple comparison is the most inaccurate and that you refuse to look at reputable more comprehensive studies that prove you wrong. Here again is a study that seems pretty thorough and unmanipulated.

    http://www.intellichoice.com/press/h...el_survey_2009

  4. #14
    lloyd Handwerker is offline
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    You say the hybrid battery should last between 5 to 7 years?
    Fact. Toyota has not replace A SINGLE BATTERY in the Prius for wear and tear in almost 10 years that it has been on the road (came out in 2000) They say they are designed to last between 150,000 t0 200,000 miles and possibly longer.
    The newer batteries are not only coming down in cost but are made to last even longer.

    WHERE THE HELL DO YOU GET YOUR INFO?
    Excuse me i forgot you only listen to Fox news.

  5. #15
    john is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by lloyd Handwerker View Post
    That is one way to look at it. LOL. Of course the other way to look at is it that a simple comparison is the most inaccurate and that you refuse to look at reputable more comprehensive studies that prove you wrong. Here again is a study that seems pretty thorough and unmanipulated.

    http://www.intellichoice.com/press/h...el_survey_2009


    lloyd after I rip this study to shreads, as to how it is manipulated, will you at least think about what you are reading and then putting up before you do so?

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    "IRVINE, CA (July 8, 2009) - IntelliChoice.com's fourth annual survey of eco-friendly vehicles, released today, shows that most 2009 hybrid and clean diesel cars, trucks and SUVs deliver a lower cost of ownership compared to standard versions of the same vehicles. IntelliChoice.com, a long-time observer of how environmental concerns are reshaping the auto market, is the leading source for automotive ownership cost and value analysis and is part of SOURCE INTERLINK MEDIA."


    First I will say I have never said that diesel cars are not worth their value. I have always known diesels to be better on gallons per mile but have not gone into them that much to get into a debate on them. I will say though from what I understand they have some of the same problems just not even close to as bad as hybrids. First of all diesel fuel has almost always cost more and the purchase cost is higher, maintenance cost are lower though, and they have a better life span and therefore a better resale value.


    I have to ask the question, They use the term CLEAN diesel but what really is the comparison between regular diesel and CLEAN diesel, Is the difference worth it to go with CLEAN diesel as opposed to just a diesel?

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    "The 2009 IntelliChoice.com Hybrid and Diesel Car survey explores the value of all 2009 model year hybrids and, for the first time, vehicles with clean diesel engines, by evaluating the major factors that determine a vehicle's cost of ownership over a five year period or 70,000 miles. Those factors include Fuel, Maintenance and Repair, Retained Value, Insurance, and Taxes and Licensing Fees."



    First, I will say what you should have asked yourself, why only 5 years? Could it be that after that, the cost of replacing the battery bank comes into play. As I have said the battery bank is supposed to last between 5 to 7 years.

    Second, as I have told you the study already says it is including the taxes. Could that be that they are including the government subsidies that bring the cars price down, I dont know, they are not clear about that. I will say though that from my comparison it is a logical assumtion that they are.

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    "The survey this year once again supports what we have long argued--that most hybrid vehicles and now clean diesel vehicles offer superior value to standard models," said James Bell, editor of IntelliChoice.com. "Of the 51 hybrid and clean diesel models now on the market, 35 of them deliver a cost-of-ownership that is somewhat or significantly lower than gasoline versions of the same vehicle. The long-time knock against 'green' cars, trucks and SUVs is that their sticker prices do not justify the gas savings. The point we make is that it is not just about fuel. Buyers also need to consider costs such as maintenance and resale value."



    Read the first dozen words carefully it will show that they are bias from the start.

    Once again that is taken over a 5 year time frame. I am just saying it just so happens that is about the same time you will need a new battery bank. next as I said diesel are comparible, The point here is that they have included them when they say this;

    "35 of them deliver a cost-of-ownership that is somewhat or significantly lower than gasoline versions of the same vehicle."

    Now what does the word "somewhat" mean

    How much of the word "significantly" is directed towards the diesel part of that equation, I'll bet all.

    By the way I know they use CLEAN diesel here but what is the difference if they included just a plan old diesel.


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    "Bell added, "The Obama Administration's recent announcement of unified and aggressive standards on Fuel Efficiency and CO2 Emissions puts even greater focus on the 'green' vehicles in our study. Many of the vehicles listed here will be 'make or break' efforts for their manufacturers as they work to meet new standards by 2016. In many cases, these vehicles already meet and exceed the standards."


    This just proves my point that the "The Obama Administration" is forcing people to buy these types of cars at any and all cost.

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    "Among the top-line findings from the survey:

    Clean diesel has the potential to be a game changer. "Clean diesel cars like the VW Jetta TDI and Mercedes Benz E320 perform even better than hybrids in saving thousands of dollars in costs and recouping their purchase premium," said Bell. "Make no mistake that clean diesel cars are now mainstream. The Obama Administration needs to reexamine the legacy of higher tax rates on diesel fuel, which were set long before the switch to the low sulfur formulation required for general consumer use. The time has come to put diesel on a level playing field with gasoline. The Administration could even promote it with lower taxation as is done in Europe."


    This was never the issue diesel is not a hybrid, I find it funny that they are lumbed in with the study though. It is as if they needed the diesel in the study to improve the numbers, as I showed above.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------


    "Small cars, sedans and crossovers perform better than large trucks and SUVs. "No surprise here. The Toyota Prius, Honda Civic Hybrid and even small SUVs like the Ford Escape Hybrid save their owners thousands of dollars over five years. When you begin to move into the larger vehicles, especially big SUVs, you may pay a few thousand dollars more in ownership costs for hybrid cars and clean diesel versions," said Bell.

    The higher fuel prices go, the greater value hybrids and clean diesels deliver. "The survey uses a six-month running average of $3.20 per gallon in factoring fuel costs. We expect that gas prices will eventually go up, which increases the savings for hybrid car owners."



    Once again I put this in my simple study that showed you save thousands of dollars (2400 to be exact), I also exaggerated my fuel cost also to the tune of 3 dollars. I thought that was more then fare considering where they are today. I guess this study needed it to be even higher though. The problem with this study is as I have shown the differnce is well over a FEW thousand dollars (as they say). I guess it is all in the eye of the beholder. I consider 6,000 to be more then just a FEW, I would have at least called it SEVERAL.


    I also have personal experiance with dealing with the difference between the Ford Escape and the Ford Escape hybrid version. IT IS MORE THEN JUST A FEW THOUSAND DOLLARS. It just so happens to be when I first started to do the calculations and found that the hybrid is not worth the extra cost. I was worried if I would be able to keep the thing running that long.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------


    Once again my comparason is clean and simple yours has to many things that need to answered for. A clear example is they throw in the diesel when they need to say certian things. As for things like insurance I have no idea how insurance is less on a car that cost 6,000 dollars more then another. I have found that it always cost more when you insure a car that cost more. Taxes are another question I dont know but I pay 6% sales tax on everything I buy as the price gos up so does the amount of tax I pay. As for holding there value, they just may have a higher percentage of value after 5 years. I dont have the information on that, so I will let that one go for now.


    Once again why would I pay 6,000 dollars more for a Prius when I can get the Focus for less and the gas mileage will not make up for the cost for at least 15 years. I am sorry but the percentage of resale values will come anywhere near the point at which it will make up that distance.


    Lloyd your problem is you are closed minded, you want people to buy this type of car because you believe it will help the planet. I on the other hand have an open mind on the issue of hybrids I would buy one as soon as it makes economical sense. As I said I would have bought a hybrid Escape. The problem was the cost to buy and the cost that I would save in gas was nowhere near it making it economical and that was when gas prices where at 4 dollars a gallon.

    I also dont think man is the cause of the planetary tempiture being what it is from day to day, week to week, year to year, decade to decade, century to century. Man is responsible for to small a percentage of green house gases (when considering all the other contributors), for it to be the reason for such a big percentage of climate change as you think we are.

  6. #16
    john is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by lloyd Handwerker View Post
    You say the hybrid battery should last between 5 to 7 years?
    Fact. Toyota has not replace A SINGLE BATTERY in the Prius for wear and tear in almost 10 years that it has been on the road (came out in 2000) They say they are designed to last between 150,000 t0 200,000 miles and possibly longer.
    The newer batteries are not only coming down in cost but are made to last even longer.

    WHERE THE HELL DO YOU GET YOUR INFO?
    Excuse me i forgot you only listen to Fox news.


    That was the time frame they gave for the replacement. The fact is if you really want to get into this also then why didn't you also correct the price that it will also cost. Thats right, because if they are now using lituim batteries then the price gos way up also.

  7. #17
    lloyd Handwerker is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by john View Post
    That was the time frame they gave for the replacement. The fact is if you really want to get into this also then why didn't you also correct the price that it will also cost. Thats right, because if they are now using lituim batteries then the price gos way up also.
    No it was not the time frame i just gave it to you. Toyota has a warranty on its hybrid batteries somewhere between 8 and 10 years what does that tell you? They know project the batteries to last the lifetime of the car.

    The price with lithium batteries will go up? Maybe for one generation but the price of batteries is coming down fast. i could quote you on that as well.


    Since YOU SAID the price goes way up can you please tell me how much?
    I dont know if the honda insight or the new Prius has the new lithiums but i will check on that . Do you know? Do you know how much it has increased the cost of their cars if it has the lithiums?

  8. #18
    lloyd Handwerker is offline
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    Clean diesel is considerably cleaner than older diesel and yes it is worth it. That is why they score at the top of any list for saving money. look it up on google if you dont believe me.

    Its a 5 year study because they started the study 5 years ago. Next year it will be 6 and before you know it 10 and then you wont be able to argue your points anymore. Yipee! It has ABSOLUTEY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE AGE OF THE BATTERIES. Thats whats meant by a wing and a prayer. And you call yourself a good debater? LOL.

    Intellichoice has long argued that hybrids are money savers based on their studies. So therefore you discount the study without looking at the factual elements of the study. If you want to discount all their factual information just because they support green cars go ahead.The fact is they are THE LEADING researcher on the subject of car costs. I knew you wouldnt believe whatever i supplied you with so you just proved my point.

    I have always lumped clean diesel, hybrids, plug-in hybrids, and electrics in my predictions for the future. Since you dont like this study you draw attention to diesels as somehow something that shouldnt be included. Very cute. You are sounding a wee bit defensive. Getting down off your high horse just a little bit now heh? Just look at the info on hybrids if you want and ignore the info on diesels.

    The study doesnt include hybrid-plug-ins which are comings soon and get much more mileage to the gallon than hybrids. Lets see how that plays out. Cant wait to see how long it will take for them to be cost effective.

    You base so much of your argument on hybrid batteries lasting only 5 years and you are so obviously wrong about that fact. You should replug a new number into your calculations.


    What do you think somewhat means? look at the study it shows you the variance in savings from vehicle to vehicle.

    I am close minded? No au contraire. I want cars of the future to get better mileage, be cleaner and to be cheaper as well. I look at the studies to see if that is all possible. What i find that it is possible today and getting better and better each and every day. i base my beliefs on facts and i supply them to you. You seem afraid to accept them. You seem to be rooting against all the new clean technologies and i really dont understand why.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by lloyd Handwerker View Post
    No it was not the time frame i just gave it to you. Toyota has a warranty on its hybrid batteries somewhere between 8 and 10 years what does that tell you? They know project the batteries to last the lifetime of the car.

    The price with lithium batteries will go up? Maybe for one generation but the price of batteries is coming down fast. i could quote you on that as well.


    Since YOU SAID the price goes way up can you please tell me how much?
    I dont know if the honda insight or the new Prius has the new lithiums but i will check on that . Do you know? Do you know how much it has increased the cost of their cars if it has the lithiums?

    Go check out the buick plug in and what they are saying about their price it is between 12,000 to 13,000 dollars.

  10. #20
    john is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by lloyd Handwerker View Post
    Clean diesel is considerably cleaner than older diesel and yes it is worth it. That is why they score at the top of any list for saving money. look it up on google if you dont believe me.

    Its a 5 year study because they started the study 5 years ago. Next year it will be 6 and before you know it 10 and then you wont be able to argue your points anymore. Yipee! It has ABSOLUTEY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE AGE OF THE BATTERIES. Thats whats meant by a wing and a prayer. And you call yourself a good debater? LOL.

    Intellichoice has long argued that hybrids are money savers based on their studies. So therefore you discount the study without looking at the factual elements of the study. If you want to discount all their factual information just because they support green cars go ahead.The fact is they are THE LEADING researcher on the subject of car costs. I knew you wouldnt believe whatever i supplied you with so you just proved my point.

    I have always lumped clean diesel, hybrids, plug-in hybrids, and electrics in my predictions for the future. Since you dont like this study you draw attention to diesels as somehow something that shouldnt be included. Very cute. You are sounding a wee bit defensive. Getting down off your high horse just a little bit now heh? Just look at the info on hybrids if you want and ignore the info on diesels.

    The study doesnt include hybrid-plug-ins which are comings soon and get much more mileage to the gallon than hybrids. Lets see how that plays out. Cant wait to see how long it will take for them to be cost effective.

    You base so much of your argument on hybrid batteries lasting only 5 years and you are so obviously wrong about that fact. You should replug a new number into your calculations.


    What do you think somewhat means? look at the study it shows you the variance in savings from vehicle to vehicle.

    I am close minded? No au contraire. I want cars of the future to get better mileage, be cleaner and to be cheaper as well. I look at the studies to see if that is all possible. What i find that it is possible today and getting better and better each and every day. i base my beliefs on facts and i supply them to you. You seem afraid to accept them. You seem to be rooting against all the new clean technologies and i really dont understand why.



    If true then why are they comparing 2009 cars. I am sorry How can you do a study going 5 years into the future on a car that is a 2009 but then you they are only doing a 5 year study because that is how long they have been doing it. That makes absolutely no sense.



    I have found out there is little difference between clean diesel and diesel. I found out that what makes the big difference is the fuel and where it comes from.

    Are you kidding me I discount the study without looking at the factual elements of the study. I took it part by part.

    No dumbass go take a look at your unedited post they all have hybrids nowhere did you mention diesel. If you did I would not have said anything about them for reasons I talked about before.


    If you are talking about the two lines of comparisons at the end, excuse me were is the break down where are all the figures like I did. That is the proplem with your study it does not show how they got to the point they did they say they figured things like insurance and taxes yet nowhere are they shown in ther figures.

    Try showing me a study with those kinds of figures. How much is given to tax subsidies, how much is the difference in insurance. what are the miles each gets and what is the price of fuel that they are using (I know they said 3.2 dollars a gallon but where is it figured in to their figures. YOUR STUDY SHOWS NONE OF THAT. That is the problem with your study.
    Last edited by john; 08-12-2009 at 03:58 PM.

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