SIRI Intraday Thread Tuesday June 2, 2009

[lloyd Handwerker]

All unions aren't the issue, and neither are all industries. But, if anyone thinks that the people on the line at a GM plant who bolt the seats to the floor deserve almost $70/hr (fully loaded with benefits) is nuts. If you pull the benefits out, it's probably around $50/hr, which equals around $100k per year. Wow! Even if it's only 50k per year. That's way higher than the national average, and, for those who work in plants in more rural areas, they are paid so out of whack compared to others it's crazy. There are plenty of union workers in other industries that don't make anywhere near that. I'm not commenting on ALL unions. But, there are some industries where the impact of union greed is huge. This is an incontrovertible, economic fact.

i notice you never talk about upper managements excessive salaries, stock options, retirment options etc. You like to pick on the little guy.
Actually whats happening at the moment is that everybody is sacrificing so maybe your happy now?
Are their unions excesses? You bet. Are there corrupt union leaders? You bet
But it happens at every level of corporate business. Open your eyes. You have been led to believe a bunch of BS.

[john]

Unions, unions, unions, unions, unions, unions, unions, unions, unions, unions, unions, unions, unions, unions, unions, unions, unions, unions,
unions, unions, unions, unions, unions, unions, unions, unions, unions, unions,unions..................................... ................................................Ww wwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh hhhhhh! I know. The unions are responsible for Sirius's stock price, your uncles bum leg and your pets constipation. Anything else? Hilarious.

Oh by the way my Grandfather and Dad ran VERY successful restaurants with unions. When things were tough they accepted responsibility. But that was a different time where people didnt look for scapegoats but worked their asses off to make it work for everybody.

You dont need to be a genus to figure out that if union labor cost you 3,500 dollars more then your competition to produce the same product, then something has to change. Its hard to change something when they got half of the congress protecting them. There is no scapegoating here the facts are the facts the numbers are the numbers. Just go to the Toyota plant down south no union and they pay them 14 to 17 dollars an hour for the same work the unions charge 24 to 32 dollars an hour for and the benefits for those non union workers are nowhere near what they are for the unions. So say what you will numbers dont lie.

[airman]

You dont need to be a genus to figure out that if union labor cost you 3,500 dollars more then your competition to produce the same product, then something has to change. Its hard to change something when they got half of the congress protecting them. There is no scapegoating here the facts are the facts the numbers are the numbers. Just go to the Toyota plant down south no union and they pay them 14 to 17 dollars an hour for the same work the unions charge 24 to 32 dollars an hour for and the benefits for those non union workers are nowhere near what they are for the unions. So say what you will numbers dont lie.

And then he says something to redeem himself. Cant hate the guy completely

[relmor2003]

GM thing isnt that hard to figure out.
GM sold the most cars in the world.
They lost billions.
WHy?
Too many costs associated with their production.
Why?
Paying 80 year old men to do nothing.
Have to worry about the EPA, and pensions, and 401k matching, you name it. Japan automakers dont worry about the same things. Nor Korean.
German carsmakers are an anomoly of efficiency and reputation. Their buyers are very loyal throughout the world. They never went big into SUV's. BMW never relied on SUV sales to make or break them/
Paying suppliers fat buddy buddy contracts for years AND YEARS. Overpaying for parts.
Pushing a line of vehicles that was never economically viable. 50K a year family cannot afford to go offroading, and look good doing it. Sorry, was never meant to be. This is the only controllable aspect of the company the current CEO really had control over. He inherited everything else.
And no hybrid car. That hurt too.

[john]

i notice you never talk about upper managements excessive salaries, stock options, retirment options etc. You like to pick on the little guy.
Actually whats happening at the moment is that everybody is sacrificing so maybe your happy now?
Are their unions excesses? You bet. Are there corrupt union leaders? You bet
But it happens at every level of corporate business. Open your eyes. You have been led to believe a bunch of BS.

Are you kidding me most of the union guys are making more then the salarly guys. Heres a perfect example a engineer with 10 years in will make about 65,000 at Ford and some guy with no college comes in and after only 5 years in can be making 75,000 to 100,000 a year.

[underway]

i notice you never talk about upper managements excessive salaries, stock options, retirment options etc. You like to pick on the little guy.
Actually whats happening at the moment is that everybody is sacrificing so maybe your happy now?
Are their unions excesses? You bet. Are there corrupt union leaders? You bet
But it happens at every level of corporate business. Open your eyes. You have been led to believe a bunch of BS.

You aren't reading what I said. I absolutely said corp exec greed! I've seen it first hand. I saw union excess when I worked at Ford in the late 70s. I saw corp exec excess and greed when I worked in drug industry. I am very familiar, first hand, with all this. There is no single cause. I never said there was.

[JohnnyIrishXM]

You dont need to be a genus to figure out that if union labor cost you 3,500 dollars more then your competition to produce the same product, then something has to change. Its hard to change something when they got half of the congress protecting them. There is no scapegoating here the facts are the facts the numbers are the numbers. Just go to the Toyota plant down south no union and they pay them 14 to 17 dollars an hour for the same work the unions charge 24 to 32 dollars an hour for and the benefits for those non union workers are nowhere near what they are for the unions. So say what you will numbers dont lie.

Actually john your wrong about that,toyota and honda are now approaching
20 years in the US and their long tenured workers make way more than that,they are begining to run into the same problems as Gm with costs going up..not anywhere near as dear as GM but still the labor cost is going up..The UAW agreed a while ago to 2 tier Salary structure to help out GM and Ford,but the main problem is their legacy promises they made to retirees decades ago,namely lifetime healthcare and the underfunded mandate on their pension plan which is drastically unfunded as it should have been..Clinton passed legislation to corporate america to force these funds to get up to speed and congress keeps pushing back the time-line on them,see protecting Corp's not unions,it is a major problem with all company pensions,but especially municipal pensions..

[john]

GM thing isnt that hard to figure out.
GM sold the most cars in the world.
They lost billions.
WHy?
Too many costs associated with their production.
Why?
Paying 80 year old men to do nothing.
Have to worry about the EPA, and pensions, and 401k matching, you name it. Japan automakers dont worry about the same things. Nor Korean.
German carsmakers are an anomoly of efficiency and reputation. Their buyers are very loyal throughout the world. They never went big into SUV's. BMW never relied on SUV sales to make or break them/
Paying suppliers fat buddy buddy contracts for years AND YEARS. Overpaying for parts.
Pushing a line of vehicles that was never economically viable. 50K a year family cannot afford to go offroading, and look good doing it. Sorry, was never meant to be. This is the only controllable aspect of the company the current CEO really had control over. He inherited everything else.
And no hybrid car. That hurt too.

I dont know about the over paying for parts. I know of many stories were the OEMs screwed and I mean screwed the parts supplers. There was little to no margin for error by the parts supply in many cases.

[lloyd Handwerker]

You dont need to be a genus to figure out that if union labor cost you 3,500 dollars more then your competition to produce the same product, then something has to change. Its hard to change something when they got half of the congress protecting them. There is no scapegoating here the facts are the facts the numbers are the numbers. Just go to the Toyota plant down south no union and they pay them 14 to 17 dollars an hour for the same work the unions charge 24 to 32 dollars an hour for and the benefits for those non union workers are nowhere near what they are for the unions. So say what you will numbers dont lie.

People buy Apple computers even though they are more expensive. Why do you think that is. Price is one part of the equation.
So now that the Govt plan has brought workers pay down to equal what it is in Japan everything will be just perfect with GM? Not so simple John. lots of pieces to the puzzle .
And sorry to disabuse of some beliefs you have but yes numbers do lie and lie all the time. I quess you dont watch Presidential debates do you.?Everyone can point to different facts, numbers and interpretations of all.

[trippingthespeculatingpos]

so their ceo getting 20 million just for being fired wasnt part of the problem. trust me thats just 1 example, i love when people complain about unions when ceo's are the ones raping these companies for every penny they have. maybe instead of paying your ceo millions you should just pay him half a mil then u could continue to pay FAIR wages that people can actually enjoy their life with. the problem isnt the workers on the bottom making 24-32an hour its the big boys on top. there is a reason why the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.